Irish: Correspondent to "the thing that I thought I would do it"

kanadaaa

Senior Member
Japanese (Tokai)
Hi, I'm collecting Irish data for my linguistic research, and I'd appreciate it if you gave me a hand.
(I know pretty much nothing about Irish grammar, so please excuse me for possible annoyance.)

I read that the following sentence is structurally analogous to English when it comes to a relative clause formation:

(1)
an rud a shíl mé a dúirt tú a dhéanfá
the thing that thought I that said you that I.would.do
'the thing that I thought you said you would do'

But Irish allows the presence of a redundant pronoun unlike English.
Given this, I need the expression that corresponds to "the thing that I thought you said you would do it", where the thing and it refers to the same thing.
Is it:

(2) an rud ar shíl mé go dúirt tú go dhéanfá é

Thank you.
 
  • se16teddy

    Senior Member
    English - England
    But Irish allows the presence of a redundant pronoun unlike English.
    I am very much a beginner in Irish. It is also not very clear to me what exactly you are exploring.

    However, my understanding is that there is no "redundant pronoun" in Irish when that pronoun is the subject or object of the relative clause. The redundant pronoun is only present when it plays a different role in the relative clause: when it follows a preposition, or when it is genitive. Have you heard different?

    I fear therefore that your sample sentence for exploring this issue may have to be more complex than This is what I thought you said you would do. Maybe This is what I thought you put it in.

    Braesicke explains the difference between direct and indirect relative clauses here: Gramadach na Gaeilge
    - in Caibidil a Trí Déag: Clauses and Syntax (Abairt agus Comhréir)
    - Then under "Relative clauses".

    Incidentally, Irish is not so frequently discussed in the WordReference forums. You might find you get a quicker response at https://www.irishlanguageforum.com
     
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    Tegs

    Mód ar líne
    English (Ireland)
    I need the expression that corresponds to "the thing that I thought you said you would do it", where the thing and it refers to the same thing.
    Is it:

    (2) an rud ar shíl mé go dúirt tú go dhéanfá é
    No. That's grammatically incorrect. You are asking for a sentence which would not be grammatically correct in Irish.
     

    Cork Irish

    Senior Member
    British English
    Hi, I'm collecting Irish data for my linguistic research, and I'd appreciate it if you gave me a hand.
    (I know pretty much nothing about Irish grammar, so please excuse me for possible annoyance.)

    I read that the following sentence is structurally analogous to English when it comes to a relative clause formation:

    (1)
    an rud a shíl mé a dúirt tú a dhéanfá
    the thing that thought I that said you that I.would.do
    'the thing that I thought you said you would do'

    But Irish allows the presence of a redundant pronoun unlike English.
    Given this, I need the expression that corresponds to "the thing that I thought you said you would do it", where the thing and it refers to the same thing.
    Is it:

    (2) an rud ar shíl mé go dúirt tú go dhéanfá é

    Thank you.
    Sentences with 3 or 4 nested relative clauses are very rare in Irish, and although Gerald O'Nolan discussed them in his Studies in Modern Irish in 1919, he didn't give attestation of sentences he offered.
    Examples he gave are:
    1. cé is dóigh leat a scríobh an litir?
    2. cad é a mhinicí do fuaras é san áit nár mheasas a gheobhainn é!
    3. cad é an chuma 'nar dhóigh leat a dúirt sé do mheasadar ab fhearr a raghadh an scéal i dtairbhe dhóibh?

    1. Has a double direct relative.
    If DR means "direct relative" and IR "indirect relative", this is: cé DR is dóigh leat DR a scríobh an litir? Who do you think wrote the letter?

    2. Is interesting, because Nolan argued in nested clauses of this type, the indirect relative is only possible in the first of the nested relatives. Normally, it would be "an áit 'nar bhfaighinn é", with an indirect relative, but the indirect relative is transferred to the first of the nested causes ('nar mheasas) and we are left with a direct relative in the final one. We can parse it like this:
    Cad é a mhinicí do fuaras é san áit IR nár mheasas DR a gheobhainn é! How often have I found it in the place I didn't think I would find it in!

    3. Has quintuple nested relatives. The indirect relative is found only in the first relative ('nar dhóigh) and all the rest are direct. The sentence means "in what way do you think he said they thought things would work out to their benefit"? But, as I say, O'Nolan, who was professor of Irish at Maynooth, did not say where he got the sentence from. We can parse it like this:
    Cad é an chuma IR 'nar dhóigh leat DR a dúirt sé DR do mheasadar DR ab fhearr DR a raghadh an scéal i dtairbhe dhóibh?

    In your case, there are no indirect relatives, so it is quite simple:
    an rud a shíleas a dúraís a dhéanfá (Munster Irish)
    or in the Irish taught in Irish schools: an rud a shíl mé a dúirt tú a dhéanfá

    But while grammatical, you could argue such sentences are convoluted?

    You suggested "an rud ar shíl mé go dúirt tú go dhéanfá é". As someone has already pointed out this is not grammatically correct. 1. There is no need for the indirect relative in the first clause. 2. There is no need for é at the end. 3. go dhéanfá is wrong, as "go" does not occasion lenition. 4. If these are all direct relatives as separate sentences, then when nested, they are direct relatives too.

    You have 3 underlying sentences: rud a shíl mé, rud a dúirt tú, rud a dhéanfá -- all relative. So it is: rud a shíl mé a dúirt tú a dhéanfá. (This exact sentence is found in books google com a number of times, being discussed in academic journals. It is the correct sentence.)
     
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