Is Greek similar to other languages?

  • merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    Really? It doesn't sound Italian at all to me... :confused: I don't know how Italian exactly sounds though... :D
    That's what I describe as "Mediterranean phonetics". :) (Italian has more vowels, of course, but that fact is likely a bit obscured.)
    Well, I still think it sounds very, very Spanish but I'd lower the percentage from 90% to 60%.
    I had vastly underestimated how palatalized Greek consonants were. Maybe this is dialectal? but, for example, I heard όχι pronounced much closer to óshi than Spanish óji, and και closer to Italian c'è than to che. Every consonant is palatalized before i and e in my opinion. Also s and z before i and e, are going towards ʃ and ʒ. In Spanish palatalization is inexistent.
    The accented syllable is also a tad longer than in Spanish, somewhere between that and Italian. Going for subtleties the e and o seem slightly more open than in Spanish.
     

    pollohispanizado

    Senior Member
    Inglés canadiense

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Well, I still think it sounds very, very Spanish but I'd lower the percentage from 90% to 60%.
    I had vastly underestimated how palatalized Greek consonants were. Maybe this is dialectal? but, for example, I heard όχι pronounced much closer to óshi than Spanish óji, and και closer to Italian c'è than to che. Every consonant is palatalized before i and e in my opinion. Also s and z before i and e, are going towards ʃ and ʒ. In Spanish palatalization is inexistent.
    The accented syllable is also a tad longer than in Spanish, somewhere between that and Italian. Going for subtleties the e and o seem slightly more open than in Spanish.
    That could also be due to your knowledge of Greek having increased a little. Generally speaking, the best you get to know two languages, the less ressemblance you see between them.
     
    Well, I still think it sounds very, very Spanish but I'd lower the percentage from 90% to 60%.
    I had vastly underestimated how palatalized Greek consonants were. Maybe this is dialectal? but, for example, I heard όχι pronounced much closer to óshi than Spanish óji, and και closer to Italian c'è than to che. Every consonant is palatalized before i and e in my opinion. Also s and z before i and e, are going towards ʃ and ʒ. In Spanish palatalization is inexistent.
    The accented syllable is also a tad longer than in Spanish, somewhere between that and Italian. Going for subtleties the e and o seem slightly more open than in Spanish.
    May I ask where did you hear όχι as óshi? Are you perhaps in Crete? In Rhodes? It could be regional
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    May I ask where did you hear όχι as óshi? Are you perhaps in Crete? In Rhodes? It could be regional
    I was mostly in the Peloponnese. It wasn't exactly óshi. I think the correct IPA might be [oɕi]. If it is [ç] it's not the same as the sound in German. It's more palatal and more energetic. όχι is said all the time.
     
    I was mostly in the Peloponnese. It wasn't exactly óshi. I think the correct IPA might be [oɕi]. If it is [ç] it's not the same as the sound in German. It's more palatal and more energetic. όχι is said all the time.
    Ah, you heard an extreme example of palatalization that occurs in the Southern - Peloponnesian variant, you probably heard lots of [ʎi], [ɲi] as well. The Peloponnesian palatalization in particular, is extreme, and the subject of many comedic pieces in theatre or television due to its rustic elements. The Athenian (Standard Modern Greek) and Northern variants, don't palatalize as often and as extreme as the Peloponnesian does
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Cypriot is not a separate or similar language but is purely Greek. The official language of Cyprus, as accepted and recognised in the European Union and the UN, is the standard Modern Greek and is used in politics, diplomacy, education, press, radio, television, in every field of science and letters and, of course, in all contacts and communications with the Greeks (the Cypriot accent being in most cases perceptible). The vernacular language, which is the mother tongue of most of the Greek-Cypriot population, is a dialect of Modern Greek (as Arcadocypriot was one of the Ancient Greek dialects) and is used in everyday life by ordinary people, in special radio and TV productions, in traditional culture products etc.
     

    Linnets

    Senior Member
    I was mostly in the Peloponnese. It wasn't exactly óshi. I think the correct IPA might be [oɕi].
    Italian phonetician Canepari transcribes it [ç̄] (retracted/backed) or, better, with an idiosyncratic symbol meaning a retracted [ç].

    Cypriot is not a separate or similar language but is purely Greek. [...] The vernacular language, which is the mother tongue of most of the Greek-Cypriot population, is a dialect of Modern Greek (as Arcadocypriot was one of the Ancient Greek dialects) and is used in everyday life by ordinary people, in special radio and TV productions, in traditional culture products etc.
    I didn't mean (vernacular) Cypriot was not purely Greek; I was fascinated by its features, such as the aspirated stops, which remind me Classical Greek.
     
    If I may chime in, @ioanell, I don't think that @Linnets is denying the "Greekness" of Cypriot-Greek, truth to be told though, its vernacular is unintelligible to us "mainland Greeks". If you're not fully immersed in it, you don't understand what the verb «πελλανίσκω» [pe̞lːaˈnis̠ko̞], or the nouns «καρκασαλλίκκιν» [karkas̠aˈlːiɕin] (neut.) and «βολίτζιν» [vo̞ˈlid͡ʑin] (neut.) mean. One is confident it's Greek, but can't relate to them, let alone, etymoloɡize them.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    «πελλανίσκω» «καρκασαλλίκκιν» «βολίτζιν»
    Cute enough, apmoy70, the vernacular words you chose!
    Of course, Linnets is not denying the “Greekness” of Cypriot-Greek, but the aim of my post was just to pre-empt possible misunderstandings by other posters -not familiar enough with the Greek language-, due to the use of the adjective “similar” which, of course, is different from “same”. I agree that the vernacular Cypriot-Greek is, I wouldn’t say completely unintelligible, very difficult for us "mainland Greeks" to understand; and that’s why it is linguistically considered as a dialect and not simply as a regional idiom (more easily understandable). A further aim was to inform that, in parallel with the vernacular, the standard Modern Greek is understood and used throughout the country in all the abovementioned fields, especially among educated and young people.
     
    Could you possibly translate the words and say what the word is in your dialect/standard Greek? :)
    «Πελλανίσκω» [pe̞lːaˈnis̠ko̞] < Cypriot-Greek «πελλός» [pe̞ˈlːo̞s̠] < Byz.Gr «πελελός» pelelós < Classical Gr. «ἀπολωλός» ăpŏlōlós (Imperfect Active Participle) of Classical athematic verb «ἀπόλλῡμι» ăpóllūmĭ; therefore «πελλός» is the crazy one, and «πελλανίσκω» is to go insane, get crazy, act out of control.
    Standard Modern Greek: «Τρελαίνομαι» [tre̞ˈle̞no̞me̞] (mediopassive v.), denominative from the Byz.Gr adj. «τρελός» trelós --> crazy, madman < Koine Gr. adj. «τρηρός» trērós --> timorous, shy, metaph. crazy < Classical adj. «τρήρων» trērōn --> timorous, shy, trembler, wretched, metaph. quick, small ship (PIE *tres- to tremble cf. Skt. त्रसति (trasati), to run away, be afraid of, Av. taršta- fearful, Lat. terrēre).

    «Καρκασαλλίκκιν» [karkas̠aˈlːiɕin] (neut.) --> see @ioanell's post below

    «Βολίτζιν» [vo̞ˈlid͡ʑin] (neut.) is structural support, beam (see below for its etymology).
    SMG: «Δοκός» [ðo̞ˈko̞s̠] (fem.) < Classical deverbative fem. noun «δοκός» dŏkós --> beam < Classical deponent v. «δέχομαι» dékʰŏmai.
    As you can see, they're totally unrelated.

    Edit: Apologies for my late editing, I corrected some mistakes
     
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    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Could you possibly translate the words and say what the word is in your dialect/standard Greek?
    If I may add some extras to apmoy70’s full explanation.

    Drawn from GLOSSARY OF THE CYPRIOT DIALECT

    καρκασαλλίκκιν (from Turkish “karişiklik”):

    English: fuss, loud noise, commotion SMG: έντονος θόρυβος, φασαρία, (more colloquial) σαματάς, νταβαντούρι

    βολίτζιν (from French “[latte] volige ”):

    English: wooden beam (timber plank) of the roof SMG: δοκός, ξύλινο δοκάρι/σανίδα (της στέγης/οροφής)
     
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