Is spelling important in your country?

Discussion in 'Cultural Discussions' started by Joelline, May 23, 2007.

  1. zwim

    zwim Senior Member

    Paris
    français
    Spelling in France is quite important and there are specific courses in school (dictée) to teach that, although as DearPrudence told, it's less emphasized than in the past, ministers even regularly contemplate the possibility of removing such a teaching.

    I remember the Dictée (a televised exercise of extreme difficulty spelling with awards and such), where i was happy i made only 19 mistakes (and i was quite good at that exercise at school), while my father made only 14 and i was so surprized seeing my grandmother sobbing in tears, complaining she was getting older and useless. I asked her her score, and she had made 4 mistakes. I was ashamed to tell her mine...

    Yet wrong spelling is everywhere, and it's not uncommon to see some red felt-tipped correction on a poster or a note displayed in a public place.

    It's also common that on forums some people (generally young) write with a lot of spelling mistakes (when not in sms language) and see an army of angry redeemers coming to castigate the infidel (which in turn are called old-timers when not nazis by the wrong spelling one).

    Incorrect spelling in your cover/motivation letter can cost you a job, even if you apply for the least of unskilled labour, because it would mean that you are not serious to the job if you don't give the fuck to examine your mail with the spell-checker, even if the employer has to run the spell-checker himself to detect your mistakes. But then, when in the place, you are free to make all the mistakes you want, even in educated jobs, because most people are like you and they don't bother or wouldn't because of social conventions, i exagerate maybe a bit, but it's kind of a paradoxal situation.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  2. Mikeo38 Senior Member

    English (British)
    It's interesting to see the reference to dictation above. The latter has had a bad press over the years but when I was teaching at a private English language school in the UK, I used dictation every day in what I found was an effective way - not as a test; certainly not an extract from an unseen text but from something that we'd covered the previous day. At the end of each lesson, I'd say something like: "OK today we went through this piece about animal welfare. Tomorrow I'll dictate part of one of the paragraphs." This was duly dictated at the start of the lesson and each student would correct the script of a person sitting nearby. Including the correction, the whole thing would last no more than five minutes. Apart from directing attention to the spelling, this exercise helped to settle the class down. Also any latecomers would not miss the main part of the day's lesson. As far as dictation is concerned, I believe the rule should be 'brief, little and often'. It's best used to reinforce words that students have already encountered.
     
  3. Rallino Moderatoúrkos

    Erzincan
    Turkish
    Turkish is highly phonetic, so it's not exactly difficult to spell a word. So almost all the spelling errors are about spelling what should be written in two words as one whole word, or vice versa. Sometimes, it might cause a misunderstanding:

    Ev de = The house as well
    Evde = in the house

    But since the context almost always makes it clear, the majority of the people simply don't care about it, so you could say that misspellings are quite common in the country.

    For me,though,none of those misspellings are as annoying as missing a space after a comma,or inserting one before a fullstop .
     
  4. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    English pupils have spelling competitions. Hungarian do not have.
     
  5. kakapadaka Senior Member

    Polish
    In Polish it's fairly important although many people ignore correct spelling, especially in the Internet.
    A blatant disregard for it is frowned upon and ridiculed, not only in school. Fellow Internet users will mock you if you misspell severely, although we are very forgiving about making simplifications when typing online in informal situations, see below.
    Kids learn spelling at school, although we have no spelling competitions like those seen in some American movies. At some point (somewhere around age 14 in my case) grammar and spelling exercise end and all you're left with is literature (which, by the way, would be more than enough to ensure that we know how to spell, IF we took the trouble to actually do the reading).
    As for the nature of our spelling sins, Polish has many phonemes related to more than just one grapheme (letter). For instance, both ó and u are pronunced /u/, both h and ch are pronunced /x/ etc. So if you see a graffiti saying HWDP this will be an incorrect version of CHWDP ("F**k the police") and if you don't read many books and skip your language class you won't know how the correct word looks like. To make things worse, there are lots of homophones, so many spellings can be correct depending on the context.
    Diacritical marks are often omitted, especially online. A seasoned speaker will know that zolw is actually żółw and zyznosc is actually żyzność. Sometimes it's done on purpose to mimic a spoken style. Try googling ja pierdole which is an incorrect spelling of ja pierdolę ("f**k me", "for f**k's sake"), you'll find plenty of internet memes all written wrong. It's so, because the -ę ending is actually pronunced as [e], and you can write it that way to make it more similar to its usual, colloquial way of being said.
    There are tons of other examples, I can elaborate if you wish, but I don't think that was the idea for this thread. Anyway, Polish is pretty complex with its spelling, so books can be (and have been) written on the subject.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  6. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    Silvia,
    What is the main difficulty in the Italian spelling for a young scholar?
    There are many dialects in Italy very different from the official Italian language?
    Is the spelling of Venice dialect taught in Venice, for example?
     
  7. Nino83 Senior Member

    Italian
    Words like "informazione" or "polizia", i.e with "zi + vowel", which are pronounced with a double [ʦʦ], [informaʦʦjoːne], the plural of words ending with unstressed "cia" and "gia", like "ciliegia" and "camicia", which are written "ciliegie", "camicie" (with "gie" and "cie"), "bolgia" and "provincia", written "bolge" and "province" (with "ge" and "ce"), because they are pronounced the same, i.e [ʧe]/[ʤe].
    But, at elementary school, you are taught that the correct orthography is "zione", "gie/cie" if there is a vowel before "c/g" and "ge/ce" if there is a consonant before "c/g".
    Other errors are those regarding "ne/né" (ne = some, né...né = neither...nor), "ce/c'è" (ce = of it, c'è = there is), "c/qu" in word pronounced [kw], like "cuore", "qual è" ("qual'è" is wrong), "un po'" (and not "un pò"), "accelerare" (not "accellerare"), "un amico", "un'amica", but "l'amico", "l'amica" (while "un'amico", "un amica" are wrong), "e/è", "a/ha".

    For peninsular Italians (who have "raddoppiamento fonosintattico" before some prepositions and other particular words) sometimes one doesn't know if there is a single word or a preposition + word, like "a posto" (in place, ok) and "apposto" (put), which are both pronounced [appɔsto], or "a fianco" (beside) and "affianco" (I stand beside), both pronounced [affjanko].

    I mentioned almost all possible mistakes and I had to search them on a website, because I can't remember them.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  8. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    Thank you Nino, for the detailed answer.
    This question remained unanswered.
     
  9. Nino83 Senior Member

    Italian
    I don't know (I'm from Sicily).
    There is a composition written by an 8 years old kid in Ca' Tron di Roncalde, Veneto, 1954:
    http://www.veja.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/monte_berico.jpg
    Some mistakes: "siamo ndati a lamadona demonteberico" (siamo andati dalla madonna di Monte Berico), "grassia par miasorela" (grazia per mia sorella), "maridata" (maritata, sposata) "ani" (anni), "e no a gnanca tosatei" (e non ha figli), "siamo pregati" (abbiamo pregato), "siamo mangiati" (abbiamo mangiato), "siamo vegnuti casa" (siamo venuti a casa), "no si siamo capiti" (non ci siamo capiti), "co la" (con la), "fatostà" (fatto sta), "insinta" (incinta), "laltra sorela" (l'altra sorella), "no è gnonca maridata" (non è neanche maritata/sposata).

    It was written in 1954, I guess that today there should be fewer mistakes.
    In Veneto Venetian language is spoken a lot, while, for example, Piedmontese and Milanese are endangered languages (according to UNESCO).
    In peninsular Italy there are fewer problems with spelling, because Italian languages below the La Spezia-Rimini (exactly Massa-Senigallia) line are very similar in phonology and grammar.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  10. eno2

    eno2 Senior Member

    El Hierro de Canarias
    Dutch-Flemish
    We all use the same words. That's very depersonalising. To compensate for that, we all write them differently. That makes us
    individuals again.
     
  11. Mikeo38 Senior Member

    English (British)
    I disagree with eno2, who appears to be praising incorrect spelling on the grounds that spelling mistakes “make us individuals again”. There is nothing praiseworthy about an individual who writes ‘recieve’ instead of ‘receive’. Teachers who do not correct spelling mistakes do their pupils a great disservice.
    M
     
  12. eno2

    eno2 Senior Member

    El Hierro de Canarias
    Dutch-Flemish
    Just joking a bit. I am very very sensible to correct spelling to thepoint of being a purist. But in my language (Dutch), it's almost impossible to reach proficiency. Even the most educated make constant errors, media are full of errors, regulators make a shambles of it- for instance by changing rules each new legislature, with sometimes outright stupid changes.
     
  13. Mikeo38 Senior Member

    English (British)
    OK and glad that you didn't take offence! It's just that I have never been a natural speller - I check and double-check rather than make a mistake in anything that I write. I don't know much about Dutch: has there been a spelling reform, as was the case in German-speaking countries some years ago? I'm now retired but when I was working (in GB) I was shocked by the sloppy English that appeared in letters inquiring about jobs. That was before the days of the spellchecker although I'm the first to admit that such devices are not always reliable. I took the view that if someone was sloppy enough not to check the spelling in an important letter, then h/she would be sloppy in other respects, too.
    M
     
  14. eno2

    eno2 Senior Member

    El Hierro de Canarias
    Dutch-Flemish
    Spell-checkers are a great help but I access a more potent package in Windows Word including a grammar program to double-check on some occasions. I would never dare to post anything entirely without checking. I learn a lot from it. Spelling standards are falling everywhere, notoriously so on general fora. On serious occasions, it gives a bad impression.
     
  15. Einstein

    Einstein Senior Member

    Milano, Italia
    UK, English
    Digressing a bit: the so-called grammar check in Word (English) tells me I shouldn't use the passive (!) and that I should use the strong relative pronouns (who, which) only in a non-defining relative clause. I stick to the spell-check and ignore the rest.
     
  16. Mikeo38 Senior Member

    English (British)
    Yes, Word has got a thing about the passive! What I've done is disable the box for 'Passive' in Word prefs on the basis that I know when and where the passive should or should not be used. I previously tended towards 'which' (for things) in defining relative clauses but Word kept nudging me towards 'that'. Just shows you how one can get worn down because I probably now use 'that' most of the time! The spellcheck is good but, of course, when I wrote my post above (Today at 12:11) in Word before pasting it into the box for the forum ("an individual who writes ‘recieve’ instead of ‘receive’) the spellchecker kept autocorrecting 'recieve'. But how was the poor thing to know? However, let's be grateful for spellcheckers because they are useful tools.
    M
     
  17. Hulalessar

    Hulalessar Senior Member

    Andalucía
    English - England
    I doubt that the number of people who can spell correctly has changed significantly. With the spread of personal computers people are writing who once rarely wrote. There is a lot more writing about that we get to see.
     
  18. eno2

    eno2 Senior Member

    El Hierro de Canarias
    Dutch-Flemish
    It's notoriously the case on universities (falling spelling standards). In Flanders I mean, because I read articles who proved that. I don't think there are more than a few people "who can spell correctly". You have to be a specialist.
     
  19. Nino83 Senior Member

    Italian
    I think that if only few people can spell correctly there is a problem and a spelling reform is needed.
    It's unthinkable that, for example, in public competitive exams most people, who have to write by hand, probably will make a lot of spelling mistakes.
     
  20. Mikeo38 Senior Member

    English (British)
    The spelling reform in Germany met with a lot of resistance - there would be even more in Britain! Fairly or unfairly, rightly or wrongly, if you make a spelling mistake you hold yourself up to ridicule and people may think that you are uneducated. In respect of spelling, I reckon that for most people, words fall into three categories: (1) easy words (eg book), (2) really difficult words (eg chrysanthemum) and (3) 'iffy' words (eg relevant - people are unsure whether it's 'relevant' or 'relevent'). I am not a natural speller and when I need to write words from (2) or (3) I check the spelling. In the past, this meant leafing through a dictionary but with the internet it's so easy. Of course, there still remains the problem that if you have no idea how to spell a really difficult word, you may not be able to find it! Rather than risk a spelling mistake, I choose another word or spend longer searching.
    M
     

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