Já jsem havíř, kdo je víc

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JuliaMead

New Member
English
Ahoj! Četla jsem frázi "Já jsem havíř, kdo je víc?" v knize a chci ji překledat do angličtiny. Doslovný překlad není dobrý (I am a miner, who is more?). Můžu říct "I am a miner, who is better?"?

Díky!
 
  • Enquiring Mind

    Senior Member
    English - the Queen's
    Hi JuliaMead, and welcome to the forum! :)
    Unfortunately you haven't given the source or context for the phrase you're querying, but it has its provenance in the political mythology of the socialist era, and its impact and therefore true meaning lie not so much in the rather bland wording of the question as in the socio-political context in which it's spoken.
    It's really a rhetorical question: the speaker is invoking bragging rights about having an occupation (here, being a miner) that enjoyed a carefully cultivated politico-social kudos because of the nature of the job (dirty and dangerous, but essential to the economy).
    So yes, you're right that the words mean "I am a miner, who is more?" or, indeed, "I am a miner, who is better?" but those versions don't really convey the full impact of the utterance.
    I think I'd go with "I am a miner, who (among you) can say better?". I haven't got the context, of course, but I would expect this utterance to occur in a context where the speaker is challenging anyone else to say that they might have a more valuable (in the politico-social sense) place in (a notionally workers') society than the speaker.
    Máte ale pravdu, doslovný překlad nemusí být výstižný. You're right, though, that a literal translation doesn't always cut the mustard.
    Coincidentally. an editor with Radio Ostrava, the (political) centre of the mining industry in socialist times, says pretty much the same thing below, noting that "the question was usually followed by silence, partly because no-one wanted to cross swords with the speaker, but also because there was really no answer to this provocative question ...":
    Já jsem havíř, kdo je víc? Takovou větu jste mohli nejen po ostravských hospodách ještě před čtvrtstoletím slýchávat docela často. A také po ní obvykle nastalo ticho. Jednak se s člověkem, který takto promluvil, nikdo nechtěl pouštět do křížku, ale taky na vyřčenou provokativní otázku vlastně ani nebyla odpověď. Hornické řemeslo u nás totiž v minulosti skutečně patřilo k těm, které požívalo všeobecného společenského uznání. (ostrava.rozhlas.cz)
    So the emotional impact (though not the translation) is "I'm a miner - nuff said!", "I'm a miner - end of!", "I'm a miner, so don't try it on with me!"
     
    Last edited:

    Cautus

    Member
    Czech
    Dobrý den,
    doporučuji dotaz položit v anglickém jazyce a otázku položit raději anglickém fóru: forum.wordreference.com/forums/english-only.6/, jistě dostanete více odpovědí. Rovněž není chybou doplnit kontext.
    S přáním hezkého dne,
    Cautus

    PS: "I'm a Cautus, what else? Howk."
     
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    Enquiring Mind

    Senior Member
    English - the Queen's
    Tady jde ale právě o to, že se dotaz angličtiny netýká. Celý význam daného výroku spočívá v českých kontextuálních reáliích, tedy v politicko-sociálním postavení horníků/havířů za socialismu. AnglAmeričané to chápat nebudou ... :(
     
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    Cautus

    Member
    Czech
    Pokud se dotaz netýká angličtiny a Angličané to chápat nebudou, nebudou chápat ani "who is better" verzi, a celá diskuze trochu ztrácí na významu.
    Můžeme si jen přát, aby si knihu přečetl Angličan se základními znalostmi historie, jinak padne kosa na kámen. :D
    Ale jistě víte, že i oni měli "socialismus", a jistě se u nich našly skupiny, těžce pracující, které byly na své "postavení" hrdé. Měli by daný termín chápat podobně jako my, vždyť i oni mají svých několik uhelných dolů a předpokládám, že i u nich byla tato práce v chudém kraji, kde jinde by povolili těžbu, vysoce ceněná, kdo by ji také dělal za mrzkou odměnu, a proto se havíři, respektive horníci cítili ve zvláštním postavení. To by mělo dojít každému sečtělému čtenáři napříč světem.
    V tomto případě a za zmíněných okolností bych se přiklonil na stranu poznámky překladatele.
    Cautus
     

    JuliaMead

    New Member
    English
    Hi JuliaMead, and welcome to the forum! :)
    Unfortunately you haven't given the source or context for the phrase you're querying, but it has its provenance in the political mythology of the socialist era, and its impact and therefore true meaning lie not so much in the rather bland wording of the question as in the socio-political context in which it's spoken.
    It's really a rhetorical question: the speaker is invoking bragging rights about having an occupation (here, being a miner) that enjoyed a carefully cultivated politico-social kudos because of the nature of the job (dirty and dangerous, but essential to the economy).
    So yes, you're right that the words mean "I am a miner, who is more?" or, indeed, "I am a miner, who is better?" but those versions don't really convey the full impact of the utterance.
    I think I'd go with "I am a miner, who (among you) can say better?". I haven't got the context, of course, but I would expect this utterance to occur in a context where the speaker is challenging anyone else to say that they might have a more valuable (in the politico-social sense) place in (a notionally workers') society than the speaker.
    Máte ale pravdu, doslovný překlad nemusí být výstižný. You're right, though, that a literal translation doesn't always cut the mustard.
    Coincidentally. an editor with Radio Ostrava, the (political) centre of the mining industry in socialist times, says pretty much the same thing below, noting that "the question was usually followed by silence, partly because no-one wanted to cross swords with the speaker, but also because there was really no answer to this provocative question ...":

    So the emotional impact (though not the translation) is "I'm a miner - nuff said!", "I'm a miner - end of!", "I'm a miner, so don't try it on with me!"

    Thank you for this extremely thoughtful response! You're right, I should have included context. I've seen it in a number of places, including:
    I was curious about it mostly as a general phrase and as an idiom more than a particular instance of its usage. The point you make that the phrase could be a *challenge* is a very interesting and useful one. I will read the interview you linked!
     
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