Java silk tie

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moura

Senior Member
Portuguese Portugal
Hi,

I am indecisive about the correct translation of "Java" in the sentence I quote below.

I struggle with two options:

Java - as tropical, gauty, since Jave is in Indonesia
Java - as dark coffee or dark brown colour, a reference a found in some web page, about colours. As e.g. moka colour.

This last option, "coffee colour", on the other hand, seems not to fit with the adjectiv "snazzy" of the sentence.

quoting:
"The snazzy, but seriously phony Java silk tie looked awkward, out of place and too good for the cream shirt with the fraying collar".

Thanks
 
  • JamesM

    Senior Member
    Since it is capitalized I would assume it was a brand name of some kind. Also, it says "seriously phony Java tie" which sounds like it was an imitation of a genuine Java tie, whatever that is. "Out of the place" is incorrect; it should be "out of place." This makes me wonder if a writer who made such a mistake might also capitalize incorrectly.

    I've never heard of the brand name Java for ties, so I'm at a loss.
     

    Diddy

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    I think the word Java is referred to the Indonesian Island having that name, as it is capitalized. Then, as a proper name, you should not translate it.
     

    bradford1977

    New Member
    England, English
    Hiya,

    I agree that the translation doesn't really have to be literal as it is a proper noun. One of your definitions referred to the fact that Java was tropical so perhaps its to juxtapose the dowdiness of the shirt with the vibrancy of the tie. This is why it looked out of place. It just creates a clash of colours that suggests there is something odd about the wearer. This would tie in with the fact that the tie is, 'phoney' and so suggest an overall cheapness.

    I think the literary effect is linked to the brightness of your first definition. I think!!
     

    Trisia

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    Why does the title say "Java silk tie"? Was it like that in the original text?

    Could it be that it's supposed to be made of "Java silk"? (Don't ask me what that is, I have no idea. There are very few references on the net about this). Wikipedia has an article on the "Java cotton-tree"-Kapok, which presumably is part of the same family as the "silk tree."

    Disclaimer: Most likely meaningless speculation (and also revealing a complete lack of knowledge of plants, the textile industry, etc.) :D
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    Thank you both for your help. I really must try to translate this Java, Diddy, as for a normal Portuguese reader it may sound unknown.

    In this case, I have somewhat to "sacrifice" the original in order to a easy understanding at a first reading.
     

    waspsmakejam

    Member
    UK, English
    I think it might be what I would call a Javan silk tie - a tie made from silk produced in Java. I'm imagining one with a batik design, partly becuase I can't see how a plain silk tie coudl be "snazzy" or "phoney", but mostly because I've never bought Indonesian silk items that weren't batik.

    Of course, there's a chance that the adjective Javan doesn't exist. I can't recall ever writing it before, nor where I picked up the idea that Javan is for things, and Javanese for people.
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    I am sorry for the mistake. thanks for comment, Trisia. Really "silk" - one of the most important words... belongs to the original. I have edited it already.

    I had also a third option, but I dismissed it, as I have no sureness about a "silk Java made, so famous as to be quoted as Java silk" (my words).
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    Well, this is one of those days... To James in particular, the "the" was not from the writer, to whom I apologize, but from me only.
    Thanks
     

    Diddy

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Still... I think the translation will be something like: the tie which is made of silk from the Island of Java. In this way you are saying to the reader that Java is an Island.
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    Still... I think the translation will be something like: the tie which is made of silk from the Island of Java. In this way you are saying to the reader that Java is an Island.
    I would do that, if that should be the case. I am more inclined to the "tropical" option, though again, I am not totally sure. Besides some of your answers, I am thinking that the "snazzy" word may give here a strong hint to the option.
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    Thank you PMC.

    That brings me back to a previous dilema: silk Java (as a fabric) or silk like a Java pattern, of tropical inspiration. Oh, my,my... I think only the writer might answered that :). But the images of e-Bay really make me think.

    About the question of leaving or not the "Java" - in the case I would choose the tropical translation - is a matter of getting more literal or less. I try to balance the original message and the message to the reader, therefore in most of the cases, where the detail is not so important as to the message, I choose for the reader.

    But is is always a matter of balance and this is a "issue" with a very large field to analyse.
     

    Antigua

    Banned
    English (America)
    "The snazzy, but seriously phony Java silk tie looked awkward, out of place and too good for the cream shirt with the fraying collar".
    The snazzy, but seriously phony Java-silk tie looked awkward, out of place and too good for the cream shirt with the fraying collar.
    --- means the tie is made of silk from Java. The capital letter tells me that Java means the name of the island.

    The meaning seems clear to me. It doesn't refer to a color, or to coffee, or to tropical. (Although just the mention of "Java" brings to mind the tropics, coffee, batik, and Thai silk).

    Since java isn't a color. If you want to use it to describe a color, you need to use lower-case (java) and add (-colored).
     

    Diddy

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Hi moura!!!

    Looking at the ebay picture, the Java tie does not have any tropical pattern at all. The tie has cups of coffee!! , that means that Java is not necessarily related to a tropical thing. Then, I think it is related to the Java fabric (silk in your case).

    Just trying to figure out...
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    Hi Diddy,

    Cross posts:) Yes, which now, as I said, is putting me back in Java island and its silk, as a serious hyphotesis. As I said previously, that was a third option, that I had put away, thinking (my ignorance) that China and India would be the indicate places for a well known silk fabric.

    Thanks again
     

    moura

    Senior Member
    Portuguese Portugal
    Silk of Java or javanese silk seems realy to be the most appropriate meanings. Luckily in Portuguese there is words for both (seda javanesa or seda de Java) which seems the ideal solution.

    Thank you all for your help, including Loob (I had missed you before).
     
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