Jesus bleibet meine Freude.

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by ADRIANO AMANCIO CONCEIÇÃO, May 14, 2005.

  1. ADRIANO AMANCIO CONCEIÇÃO Member

    Belo Horizonte
    BRASIL\PORTUGUÊS
    Guten Tag.
    i am a brazilian and i don't understand german. i'm trying to play this music in my organ. is this really german?
    Does anyone know the meaning of the sentence?

    ...An organ player trying to practice a classic music.
    Danke! Adriano


    please correct me if i'm wrong.
     
  2. alc112

    alc112 Senior Member

    Concordia, Entre Ríos
    Argentina Spanish
    I think it means
    Jesus satys my happyness
    But I don't find any sense.
    Maybe Bleiben has other meaning thatt I don't know.
    I would like to know the exact translation
     
  3. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    You're right. It means "Jesus, I pray my joy will remain".
     
  4. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Who, could you break that down for me? I don't understand the form "bleibet". I'm guessing this might be by JS Bach (1685-1750), but it could even be earlier.

    Gaer
     
  5. ADRIANO AMANCIO CONCEIÇÃO Member

    Belo Horizonte
    BRASIL\PORTUGUÊS
    hello, Whodunit
    Thanks for translating.
    Now, my doubt is : why do we have a comma (,) in the english version to separate the word Jesus from the rest of the sentence, and in the german version there's none?
    Danke Adriano
     
  6. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Adriano, I'm curious. Could you tell us the composer and the year this composition was composed? I guessed JS Bach only because he was known in his own time even more for being an organ virtuoso, and I've seen many titles like that for compositions he composed.

    Gaer
     
  7. ADRIANO AMANCIO CONCEIÇÃO Member

    Belo Horizonte
    BRASIL\PORTUGUÊS
    You are right. It's really JS Bach.
    Sorry. I dont know the year this composition was composed.
     
  8. alc112

    alc112 Senior Member

    Concordia, Entre Ríos
    Argentina Spanish
    I wonder too

    I don't understand the translation.
    As far as I know, bleiben would mean in English stay, wouldn't it? in spanish means Quedar(se)
    I have to make up my mind about which one is more nonsense for me:confused:
     
  9. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Good enough. It narrows down the time-period. Bach was 20 in 1705, and I believe he was almost blind at the time he died. So we are talking about German written in the early 1700s. :)

    Gaer
     
  10. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    Jesus - noun/proper name/vocative (Jesus)
    bleibet - subjunctive I/3rd singular (stay)
    meine - possessive pronoun/genitive (my)
    Freude - noun/nominative (joy)

    "Jesus stay my joy" doesn't make sense in English either. Nor does it in German. Wait for the next responses.
     
  11. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    I suppose there has to be a comma in German, but since it is a part of music/lyrics, you often omit commas. Could you please give us the whol stanza/verse?
     
  12. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    Here're the whole lyrics, but they doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe Bach indicates Jesus as a person who can rely on, and so he says "Jesus stays my joy", because he thinks Jesus IS his joy.
     
  13. Ralf Senior Member

    Dresden
    German
    I'm afraid there's not much left to be added. Who is absolutels right. The literal English translation goes something like "Jesus remains to be my joy". However, as far as I know the English title of this cantata is "Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring". Another version is "Jesus is my joy for ever. This link will provide the English lyrics:
    http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/cantata147/jeismyjoy.pdf

    Ralf
     
  14. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    Thanks Ralf for the English lyrics. And I wasn't quite sure if it was the vocative "Jesus" or if it was "Jesus" as the subject of the sentence.
     
  15. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Who,

    Isn't "bleibet" PLURAL subjunctive I and for "ihr"?

    At any rate, this is my guess…

    Jesus bleib(e)t meine Freude, meines Trost und Saft

    Jesus wehr(e)t allem leide, er is meines Lebens Kraft

    Could bleibet and wehret be earlier forms of German?

    Or could this merely be to stretch one word over two notes? Because the tense seems to be present tense, third person singular. I don't think it's subjunctive.

    "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desire" is the correct English title, though why it is that way is a mystery to me. However, the English words are changed to fit to the music. :)

    Gaer
     
  16. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    Of course, but not in former times! When the song was created, one also said "Komme er mal her" instead of "Komm mal her", i.e. one addressed each other formally in the 3rd singular. And that's the same here:

    Ich hoffte, dass er bleibet. (sounds strange nowadays, but is correct subjunctive usage here)

    Ich hoffte, dass ihr bleibet. (sounds "more nowadays" ;) , but is also outdated)

    Three times: Definitely! :thumbsup:
     
  17. MrMagoo

    MrMagoo Senior Member

    Westphalia, Germany
    Westphalia, Germany; German
    "Jesus bleibet meine Freude, meines Herzens Trost and Saft"

    a real literal translation is not really possible here, "bleiben" is used in the sense of "(will (always)) be" here, to express a situation that doesn't end - the best way of translating "bleiben" in this case is "is".


    "bleibet" can only be indicative as the conjunctive would not end in "-t" (="bleibe").

    "Jesus (always) is my joy, juice (in the sense of "blood" = live elixir) and comfort of/for my heart".
     
  18. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    I thought it had to be present tense. I am still wondering if the spelling is older or simply deliberately chosen to span two notes.

    You can actually get quite close, literally:

    "Jesus remains (continues to be) my joy, my heart's consolation and 'Saft'."

    It's stiff, but it's not as odd as you might think. The real problem is "Saft", because it has nuances that would demand many words to come close in English. :)

    Gaer
     
  19. MrMagoo

    MrMagoo Senior Member

    Westphalia, Germany
    Westphalia, Germany; German

    It might be both in this case.
    The "e" in bleibet is older spelling, it was dropped later on) as well as necessary in this case to keep the rhyme scheme for the poem.
    So for poetical reasons, you may find some older forms of words that aren't used any longer in current German.




    Oh ok, I thought the word "remain" could have lead to confusion, too - but if you use it in the same sense, it's totally ok, of course.

    As for "Saft" - I knew about that problem as well, that's why I added 'blood' and 'life elixir'.
    Saft here is used to describe the important thing that keeps people living, the blood. (Often referred to as "Roter Saft", too).
    :)

    There are some problems in translating sometimes...
    As one of my English teachers said:
    "Translate as literal as necessary and as free as possible" ;)

    -MrMagoo
     
  20. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    I see. Perhaps the older spelling reflects an older pronunciation? I know that two syllables are pronounced in Bach's composition. But I have no idea how this word would have been pronounced in speech. :)
    "I have a good friend, Roberta, who recently moved away, but we remain close friends, keeping in contact over the Net."

    "My connection to organized religion is gone but my faith in God remains."

    "I remain involved in WR's German forum even though I have less time now than I did a few months ago."

    So it's not such a stretch. :)
    I understand the meaning perfectly, but I too was stumped. "My heart's exlixir" sounds awful, although it gets the idea across. :)
    That'a a very good rule, and doing so is a fine art!

    Gaer
     
  21. Eugin

    Eugin Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Argentina (Spanish)
    Hi everyone!! Guten nacht fur Deutschland!!!! (forgive my German, it´s very basic!! :eek:)

    This is my first time in the German forum, but I just need someone to tell me what does that title, from a Bach´s sonata, mean in English...

    I would really appreciate any help!!
    Danke sehr shon!!

    Aufwiedersehen!!!!
     
  22. MrMagoo

    MrMagoo Senior Member

    Westphalia, Germany
    Westphalia, Germany; German
    Hi Eugin,

    welcome to the forum!! :cool:
    Hope you're having a great time!!


    We had a whole thread about your topic already...
    Just have a look at this link
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=29400&highlight=bleibet+meine+freude
    and I'm sure, you'll find, what you need ;)

    All the best
    -MrMagoo
     
  23. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Right, but for a quick answer, the English title is usually:

    "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desire"

    It's very famous. ;)

    Gaer
     
  24. Eugin

    Eugin Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Argentina (Spanish)
    thanks a lot, Mr. Magoo and gaer!!! The link you provided, Mr. Magoo, is also fabolous!!!
    Thanks for answering!!! I didn´t know there was already another thread on this same topic.

    Have a good day, pals!!!!
     
  25. MrMagoo

    MrMagoo Senior Member

    Westphalia, Germany
    Westphalia, Germany; German
    You're very welcome, Eugin ;)
    Just let us know if there's anything we can help you with...
    A good day also to you.

    -MrMagoo
     
  26. nic456 Senior Member

    UK
    alemán
    Una traducción española está aquí (par. 24)
     
  27. toscairn Banned

    Japan
    Could you tell me why there's the difference between the two sentences?
     
  28. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    In former times, we used the 3rd singular (Er/Sie) for polite forms. Today it is either 3rd plural (Sie) or 2nd plural (Ihr):

    1. Komme Er/Sie mal her! (May He/She come here!)
    2. Kommet Ihr mal her! (May thou come here!)
    3. Kommen Sie mal her! (Come here, please! - polite)

    1. outdated, only found in historical films and fairy tales
    2. outdated, but we still it humorously, and its often used to address a king, lord, monarch, ...
    3. the polite form we use nowadays

    I hope this clears things up. :)
     
  29. Lykurg

    Lykurg Senior Member

    Hamburg
    German
    1., the so-called "Erzen", was not in the least polite, but a common way to address subordinates (especially in military or monarchic^^ context), becoming out-fashioned during 19th century.
     
  30. jazyk Senior Member

    Brno, Česká republika
    Brazílie, portugalština
    Some possibilities in Portuguese: Jesus, permaneça/permanece/seja/sê sempre a minha alegria.
     
  31. toscairn Banned

    Japan
    Thank you!

    Lykurg, was bedeutet ^^ in deiner Message?
     
  32. Lykurg

    Lykurg Senior Member

    Hamburg
    German
    OT: Das ^^ ist nur eine von mir sehr geschätzte Alternative zum ;) - ein Zwinkern. Ich wies damit darauf hin, daß "monarchic" gerade in der Perserteppich-Übersetzung vorgekommen war.
     
  33. MrMagoo

    MrMagoo Senior Member

    Westphalia, Germany
    Westphalia, Germany; German
    Sorry gaer, I guess I forgot your reply in this thread... :(

    I don't know either, but I think this is only for to keep the rhyme-scheme.
    In "normal" conversation, it was certainly dropped, at least I would imagine so.
     
  34. joliemarguerite New Member

    spanish
    Here the translation people use always for this "cantata 147, Bach", that I adore, by the way : Jesu, Joy of Man'S Desiring
     
  35. Kopp_inne_Wolken

    Kopp_inne_Wolken New Member

    Bad Gandersheim, Lower Saxony, Germany
    German Hochdeutsch Pladdütsch (several northern dialects)
    I tried to answer to "Jesus bleibet meine Freude",
    but I got
    I 've grown up with the Bach Cantatas, now I'm grandpa. Many years ago I read commentairies by Dr. Alfred Dürr, Bach scientist in Göttingen, Lower Saxony. A main theme of his work has been the identification of the spiritual work, especially the cantatas.
    Please let me add my understandings about Prof. Dürr, how I do read the choral (also as a prayer) and my experiences of christianity (lutheran, wesleyan). I agree to what was said before.

    I understand "Jesus bleibet meine Freude" as a threefolded statement.

    A - Jesus is my joy to any time.
    B - He will be my joy in future - from my sight.
    C - He will be my joy in future - from his sight.

    As I do know german grammatics, all three are in harmony to
    "Bleibet" as subjunctive I, 3rd case.
    I do speak from my point, but can describe several views.

    ("3rd case" was written in error, correct were "3rd person".
    See next answers, entries.
    Kopp_inne_Wolken)



    A

    Jesus is my joy,
    existance, base of life, my reason to live, my life motive, my help and goal in daily as well in whole life, my solution in difficult situations and my hope for eternities - and payers are sense of my life (the dialogue with the creator, see the Father and Adam in Paradise).
    "Bleibet"
    In the past he was (thousandtimes proofed, also visible in relations to prayers), so he is in this present moment my joy.
    He is.
    Timeless. Always - like an identity, I will not give up and I do not need to give up.


    B

    He will be my joy in future - from my sight.
    Whenever I need joy, I do look up to him.
    Whenever I want joy, I do look up to him.
    Doing steps in my own power, "I will" leads off from him - and off from joy.
    This is the reason why worldly minded do not find satisfaction in life and must get more and more - a never ending fight or hunt for money, fun (consume, a luxury lifestyle, basing on money as security, as more as better) and honours. I want to be strong. Stronger than all difficulties and hinderances can be.
    Hunting for joy does end in missing joy. Frustration, to be lonesome. Only company is dead money.
    Jesus bleibet meine Freude.
    Doing steps in his power, "Thy will be done" - all needings are satisfied.
    No burden, my sin is forgiven (after forfeit), total freedom
    and
    peace in heart.
    A kind of peace, the world does not know.
    Jesus is my joy, Jesus is my hope, Jesus is my all.
    I wish and hope not to fall in sin to be not splitted from him.
    My sight.


    C

    He will be my joy in future - from his sight.
    He gives all ever needed.
    He is waiting to make me gifts of his love.
    Yesterday, today, forever. Timeless.

    Joy, reason to sing, to dance, to hopp around, to clapp hands, to laugh - reason to be happy, knowing to be loved.
     
  36. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Hallo,

    erst mal erst man herzlich willkommen in diesem Forum.

    Ich habe Schwierigkeiten, zu verstehen, was hier deine Frage ist.

    Ich gehe mal davon aus, es geht um die Verbform "bleibet".

    Entgegen Deiner Behauptung handelt es sich dabei sicherlich um die 3. Person Singular Indikativ Präsens und nicht um eine Konjunktiv Präsens Form. In der 3. Person Singular Präsens hatte der Konjunktiv bereits im mhd. die Endung -e und der Indikativ die Endung -et.
     
  37. Kopp_inne_Wolken

    Kopp_inne_Wolken New Member

    Bad Gandersheim, Lower Saxony, Germany
    German Hochdeutsch Pladdütsch (several northern dialects)
    Vielen Dank.

    Ich habe keine Frage. Der Beitrag ist ein Anhängsel, "Appendix", konnte aber nicht als Antwort angehängt werden. Der erste Versuch, den Beitrag als neues Thema zu speichern, schlug ebenfalls fehl, denn ich hatte einen forumsinternen Verweis zum Initialthema "Jesus bleibet meine Freude" eingefügt. Der erfolgsgekrönte Versuch, den Beitrag als neues Thema zu speichern, mußte dann - ohne Hinweis darauf (Pardon) - natürlich als Frage an Alle gelesen werden. Verzwickte Sache, ich bitte um Entschuldigung für Irritation aufgrund unterlassenem Hinweis.

    Richtig, wobei das Interesse meines Beitrags auf die dichterische Freiheit des Lesers oder Sängers zielt, nämlich das Verständnis "zeitlos", das sich allerdings in Hinsicht auf den üblichen Sprachgebrauch nicht berechtigt aus "er, sie, es bleibet" ableiten läßt.

    Ich bedaure das. Es ist ein feler. Ich bestehe nicht darauf. Statt "case" muß es selbstverständlich "person" heißen.
    ich bleibe
    Du bleibest
    er, sie, es bleibet

    Korrektur
    Da Du es in einer Forumsantwort erwähnst, mag ich meinen Beitrag nicht korrigieren, spätere Leser fänden dann keine Logik in Deiner Antwort. Um Irritation vorzubeugen, die eintreten könnte wenn jemand auf den feler stößt, sollte aber zumindest ein Hinweis angebracht werden, daß der feler erkannt und weiter unten abgehandelt wurde.
    Frage dazu
    Ich vermute, es ist nicht das erste mal, daß ein feler in dieser Weise aufgetreten ist.
    Wie ist das Korrigieren / Anmerken hier im Forum üblich?
    (z. B. farbliche Markierung, Verwendung von Asterix* etc)


    --- später angehängt - Anmerkung

    Im Verlauf des Themas "Jesus bleibet meine Freude" wird über die Anwendung der dritten Person gesprochen.
    In der Mehrklassengesellschaft war es üblich, den Standesunterschied zu unterstreichen, indem man jemanden niedrigeren Standes nicht mit "Du" oder "Sie" anredete, sondern in der dritten Person. "Du" oder "Sie" konnte sich nur auf jemanden beziehen, der gleichen Standes war. Wir kennen das z. B. aus Sprüchen Friedrichs des Großen, wenn er sich an seine Soldaten wandte.

    Dieses Denken - wiewohl gegenstandslos - lebt heute noch. Ich kenne es aus der Umgebung von Füssen im Allgäu. Meine Frau & ich sprachen mit der Frau eines Zimmerermeisters über dessen beruflichen Aktivitäten, während er sich im selben Raum aufhielt, sich aber nicht am Gespräch beteiligte. Nur wenige Minuten später zeigte er sich erbost darüber, vermeintlich verachtet, zurückgesetzt worden zu sein. Er sprach zu mir in recht heftigen Worten und fragte, warum ich über ihn in der dritten Person redete, er übe immerhin einen ehrbaren Beruf aus, ich solle nicht überheblich sein.
     
  38. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    Hallo und herzlich willkommen im Forum. :)

    Ich habe die beiden Diskussionen zusammengeführt. Bei Korrekturen der Beiträge, auf die jemand schon geantwortet hat, soll man vorsichtig vorgehen, damit die Logik der Diskussion nicht gestört wird. Man kann sich zu seinen eigenen Fehler in einem neuen Beitrag äußern. Das ist wohl am besten. Eventuell kann man auch den fehlerhaften Beitrag ändern, indem man eine Erklärung hinzufügt, ohne den Fehler zu löschen.
     
  39. Kopp_inne_Wolken

    Kopp_inne_Wolken New Member

    Bad Gandersheim, Lower Saxony, Germany
    German Hochdeutsch Pladdütsch (several northern dialects)
    Vielen Dank!

    Genau das dachte ich, darum die Frage wie man üblicherweise vorgeht.

    Ich werde eine Anmerkung einfügen. Das ist für Alle die schonungsvollste Methode.
     
  40. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Entschuldige. Ich kannte den anderen Thread nicht.

    Fast! Traditionell gab es drei Formen:
    Du : In etwa wie heute als familiäre oder informelle Form. Wurde aber auch für im Stand niedrigere verwandt.
    Er/Sie : Für im Stand gleichgestellte Nicht-Adlige oder für im Stand niedriger Gestellte.
    Ihr : Für im Stand höher Gestellte, für Adlige aber immer.

    Die etwa 200 Jahre alte Form Sie (3. Plural) würde als gemeinsamer Ersatz für Er/Sie und Ihr eingeführt.
     
  41. Kopp_inne_Wolken

    Kopp_inne_Wolken New Member

    Bad Gandersheim, Lower Saxony, Germany
    German Hochdeutsch Pladdütsch (several northern dialects)
    Absolution erteilt - aber - ich hab' ja den schwarzen Peter, ich hätte deutlicher auf die Zusammenhänge hinweisen sollen, es aber versäumt. Darum Balance, Gleichstand - entschuldige bitte, Dich irritiert zu haben.

    Vielen Dank.
    Ich bin weder Historiker noch Sprachwissenschaftler. Darum ist Deine Erklärung höchst willkommen.
     

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