juntos or juntas

  • Karlaina

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but in the WR dictionary, it seems to say that the word is used adverbially with verbs like vivir, estudiar and trabajar.

    Would you say, "Nosotras vivimos/estudiamos/trabajamos juntos" or "Nosotras
    vivimos/estudiamos/trabajamos junt
    as"??
     

    slazenger14

    Senior Member
    Nosotros vivimos juntos.
    Nosotras vivimos juntas.

    Pocket Oxford Spanish Dictionary © 2005 Oxford University Press:
    junto -ta adjetivo
      1. (unido, reunido) together;
        nunca había visto tanto dinero ~/tanta gente junta I'd never seen so much money/so many people in one place
      1. (pl) (cercanos, contiguos) together;
        están demasiado ~s they're too close together;
        bailaban muy ~s they were dancing very close.
      junto,-a
      I adjetivo
      1 (reunido, acompañado, a un tiempo) together: vivimos juntos, we live together
      todos juntos, all together
      2 (próximos) tiene los ojos muy juntos, his eyes are very close together
      dos mesas juntas, two tables side by side
      II adverbio junto
      1 (cerca de) junto a, next to
      2 (en colaboración con, además de) junto con, together with

    1. (como adv)
      1. ‹estudiar/trabajar/vivir› together
      1. ‹llegar/saltar› at the same time;
        ¡ahora todos ~s! all together now!

    1. (en locs) junto a next to;
      junto con (together) with
     
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    Akhemix

    New Member
    Peruvian Spanish
    Buenas, consulté en el diccionario de la RAE (Real Academia Española) y encontré que
    Junto(a) es un adjetivo, por lo cual varia según el género del sujeto.
    Ahora bien, en su forma de adverbio es "juntamente", la cual no variaría pues depende del verbo.

    Espero que te ayude en algo, no soy un especialista en letras pero encuentro interesante el asunto.

    ------------

    Recuerda que en el español para formar adverbios a partir de un adjetivo se le agrega el sufijo "-mente".

    Adjetivo > Adverbio

    Fácil > Fácilmente
    Difícil > Difícilmente
    Junto(a) > Juntamente
     
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    Karlaina

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Gracias por sus respuestas... I guess it just seems like the word "juntos/as" is describing how something was done....

    With vivir, for example, the use is supposed to be adverbial (invariable), yet the form changes according to gender, as you have established. (Nosotras vivimos juntas.)

    :confused: What am I missing here? (Sorry that I'm having a hard time understanding this... I appreciate your patience.)
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Nosotros puede ser un conjunto de seres de género masculino sólo, o bien un conjunto de seres de ambos sexos, pero en cualquiera de los dos casos se usa el adjetivo en masculino y plural (juntos) concertando con nosotros.
    Nosotras es un conjunto de seres de género femenino solamente y el adjetivo (juntas) concuerda con nosotras en femenino y plural.
    En ambientes escolares (hace unos años) se usa in comandita, un latinismo jocoso que no hace referencia al género: vivimos in comandita.
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    Gracias por sus respuestas... I guess it just seems like the word "juntos/as" is describing how something was done....

    With vivir, for example, the use is supposed to be adverbial (invariable), yet the form changes according to gender, as you have established. (Nosotras vivimos juntas.)

    :confused: What am I missing here? (Sorry that I'm having a hard time understanding this... I appreciate your patience.)
    Hi, Karlaina.

    It is hard to tell an adjective from an adverb in English, since the form does not change, but perhaps I can help you see how junto = together can be an adjective.

    Consider the sentence "They died paupers." Paupers is a noun, not an adverb. It is something called a subject complement, completing the meaning of the verb and describing the subject, not modifying the verb. Adjectives can be complements too:

    1. They died penniless.
    2. They died happy.
    3. They died together.
    4. Live free or die. [Motto of the State of New Hampshire]

    You could say that happy in sentence 2 tells how they died, but how is a tricky word. Happy in sentence 2 does not tell the manner in which they died (e.g. "They died suddenly") or the means by which they died (e.g. "They died of cholera") but their condition when (or just before) they died.

    In sentences 1, 3, and 4,
    penniless, together, and free serve the same function, which is not adverbial. "Live free", with an adjective, is not the same as "live freely", with an adverb. "They died happily" would be just plain weird.

    For some reason, we say "They lived happily ever after", not "They lived happy ever after." But "Vivieron felices" is fine, and so is "They lived (their lives) free from care."

    I'm afraid I don't know exactly what makes live sometimes work with an adjective as subject complement and sometimes seem to require an adverb instead, but the fact is that in Spanish vivimos, estudiamos, and trabajamos have no problem taking adjectives as subject complements.

    I hope this helps.

     

    Karlaina

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Forero,

    That helps so much! Thank you... So even though the word "juntos/as" is an adjective, it does not necessarily have to modify a noun that appears in the sentence. It might sort of describe the idea of a noun that is implicit with the verb. (Such as your example about "lived happy" = "lived happy (lives)"...) Am I right?

    So then, what would be an example of the word's adverbial use with vivir/estudiar/trabajar? The WR dictionary does say that the word is used adverbially with these verbs (which is what kind of threw me off in the first place), but now that Forero has established the adjectival use of the word as a subject compliment to these verbs, I can't think of how they might take the word as an adverb. Hmmm...

    Agradezco mucho la ayuda.

    Un saludo. :)
     

    stingem

    New Member
    English
    Karlaina,

    This is a rather interesting topic. Across different languages, words with similar meanings do not necessarily have the same grammatical function. For example in English, we say "I am hungry," but in Spanish we say "tengo hambre." In English, "hungry" is an adjective, but in Spanish, the parallel word, "tener hambre", is a verb + noun.

    "Together" in English and "juntos" in Spanish is a similar case. In English, "together" is considered an adverb that describes the manner in which an action transgressed. However, in Spanish, "juntos" is considered an adjective that modifies the state of a noun. So in English, when we say "we ate together", the "together" describes the verb "ate," implying that the eating occurred in one gathering. However, in Spanish, when we say "comimos juntos", the "juntos" describes the noun, "nosotros," implying that "nosotros" is a group.

    Because in Spanish, "juntos" functions as an adjective, it is modified to "juntas" when describing feminine nouns.

    For clarification, Forero's comments on subject complements are correct. Subject complements describe the result of an action instead of how an action occurred. For example, stealing Forero's examples, in "they died happy," happy is an adjective that is used as a subject complement describing "they" and signifying that the end result of dying was being happy. However, in "they died happily," happily is an adverb describing "died" that signifies that the process of dying was a happy one.

    I think that the issues you are having are better described by the grammatical difference between "juntos" and "together" across languages, not by the grammatical concept of subject complements. Does anybody agree?
     
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