Is that one of the Kansai dialects? I didn't realise we have stress accent.
The way I pronounce karate is;
pitch accent on the second syllable, ra.
I'm not sure that Japanese does have a stress accent, actually. See Japanese pitch accent.
First of all, in English, you should write “ karate”, “Manga”, Anime” and
Samurai.
In other languages of latin origin, also the same. Many people used
to write in Spanish[FONT='Ｍ] [/FONT]some time ago “animé”, “mangá” and
Samurái. In Japanese words, any sillable even if stressed, it is
stressed very weakly and subtly, and therefore
you must not write[FONT='Ｍ] “[/FONT] ′[FONT='Ｍ]”[/FONT].
Hiro Sasaki
Samurai.
In other languages of latin origin, also the same. Many people used
to write in Spanish[FONT='Ｍ] [/FONT]some time ago “animé”, “mangá” and
Samurái. In Japanese words, any sillable even if stressed, it is
stressed very weakly and subtly, and therefore
you must not write[FONT='Ｍ] “[/FONT] ′[FONT='Ｍ]”[/FONT].
Hiro Sasaki
Well, I didn't know there were different accents, stress and pitch. Accent and stress was the same to me, perhaps because that's the way it is in Spanish 
. 勉強になりました
I said two accents because I've paid attention to the word once and I think I've heard [ka↑ɺate↓], as if saying 空 and 手 kind of separately, rather than [kaɺate↓].
I'm hardly an expert in neither phonology nor japanese, and I paid attention just ONCE to the word, so I'm probably wrong.
. 勉強になりましたI said two accents because I've paid attention to the word once and I think I've heard [ka↑ɺate↓], as if saying 空 and 手 kind of separately, rather than [kaɺate↓].
I'm hardly an expert in neither phonology nor japanese, and I paid attention just ONCE to the word, so I'm probably wrong
.Spiceman,
Even in Kansai, it varies a little depending on the speaker. In any cases,
stronger stresses or weaker stresses are so subtle usually. You don't
need worry about it too much. I heard you speaking Japanese. It is
excellent and I did not notice any strange foreign accents.
Hiro Sasaki
Even in Kansai, it varies a little depending on the speaker. In any cases,
stronger stresses or weaker stresses are so subtle usually. You don't
need worry about it too much. I heard you speaking Japanese. It is
excellent and I did not notice any strange foreign accents.
Hiro Sasaki
Accent or acento( in Spanish) have two meanings in Japanese.
1. アクセント ： stress
2. なまり 、 cockney accent ロンドンの下町のなまり
acento andaluz = andalusian accent アンダルシア なまり
アクセント does not mean なまり in Japanese.
抑揚（ よくよう ） is "intonation". More often we say イントネーション
Hiro Sasaki
1. アクセント ： stress
2. なまり 、 cockney accent ロンドンの下町のなまり
acento andaluz = andalusian accent アンダルシア なまり
アクセント does not mean なまり in Japanese.
抑揚（ よくよう ） is "intonation". More often we say イントネーション
Hiro Sasaki
Thank you.
I've always pronounced Karaté, but some people - they don't study Japanese but do a lot of Karate - corrected me and told me that the right pronunciation is Karàte.
My sensei, from Kyoto, always says Karaté and I was quite sure that the pitch accent is on the last sillabe.
Thank you very much.
I've always pronounced Karaté, but some people - they don't study Japanese but do a lot of Karate
- corrected me and told me that the right pronunciation is Karàte. My sensei, from Kyoto, always says Karaté and I was quite sure that the pitch accent is on the last sillabe.
Thank you very much.
Sorry if I sound a little picky. In 標準語 pitch accent comes both in the second and third syllable.
karate → kaRATE （標準語のアクセント）(๑￫ܫ￩）
Not picky, Cheshire !
Having read the Wiki article that Outsider has undertook to provide us with (supra #4), I now think that karate is an accentless word. Here, I am speaking about the downstep accent mentioned therein. The article also mentions that Japanese words without a downstep accent tend to have a gradual rise of pitch towards the end of the word. I opine karate gets high pitch on the second and the third syllable because of this tentency. As Hiro Sasaki has mentioned, the pitch rise is very slight. Many Japanese natives might think karate has a "flat intonation" (forgive the oxymoron).
勉強になりました、ね！！
!Having read the Wiki article that Outsider has undertook to provide us with (supra #4), I now think that karate is an accentless word. Here, I am speaking about the downstep accent mentioned therein. The article also mentions that Japanese words without a downstep accent tend to have a gradual rise of pitch towards the end of the word. I opine karate gets high pitch on the second and the third syllable because of this tentency. As Hiro Sasaki has mentioned, the pitch rise is very slight. Many Japanese natives might think karate has a "flat intonation" (forgive the oxymoron).
勉強になりました、ね！！
I have Merriam Webster's Japanese-English Learner's Dictionary which is not very complete but I bought it because it shows intonation, i.e., downstep or, as they call it in a fancy way, accent nucleous. It confirms Flaminius' last post that the word karate has two different meanings but doesn't have accent nucleous in both of them.
Writing karate with an accent (karaté) is an interesting question.
Those who know japanese also know that e in japanese is always pronounced é . Those who don't may not find it so obvious. The problem can also be found with the word kamikaze that french speakers (and many others) will pronounce as kamikaz (or kamikazi) whereas it should of course be kamikazé. Same thing with saké.
I think that puting an accent aigu on each japanese e as a rule would be a good idea.
Those who know japanese also know that e in japanese is always pronounced é . Those who don't may not find it so obvious. The problem can also be found with the word kamikaze that french speakers (and many others) will pronounce as kamikaz (or kamikazi) whereas it should of course be kamikazé. Same thing with saké.
I think that puting an accent aigu on each japanese e as a rule would be a good idea.
Aoyama san,
That depends on the rule of each language. The question was made by
an Italian. In Spanish, if written kamikazé or saké , the last syllable will
be stressed very strongly.
Hiro Sasaki
Right, but leaving apart the problem of the accentuation stress, which won't matter much in the case of japanese words, the point here is to make a difference between e (unaccented)and é . Sake (as in english in the sake of) vs. saké , other words (or name of places) like Akabané, Hakodaté etc.
The change in pitch between syallables in a language such as English is extreme in comparison to Japanese. I would suggest that for a beginner it is best to think of pronunciation as "flat", (as mentioned in the linked article), but with subtle variations that can really only be picked up with careful listening.Not picky, Cheshire
Having read the Wiki article that Outsider has undertook to provide us with (supra #4), I now think that karate is an accentless word. Here, I am speaking about the downstep accent mentioned therein. The article also mentions that Japanese words without a downstep accent tend to have a gradual rise of pitch towards the end of the word. I opine karate gets high pitch on the second and the third syllable because of this tentency. As Hiro Sasaki has mentioned, the pitch rise is very slight. Many Japanese natives might think karate has a "flat intonation" (forgive the oxymoron).
勉強になりました、ね！！
In the past written explanations of pronunciation may have been very useful, but today I think that listening to the sound of language, really quite easy now with the Internet, answers questions about pronunciation much more accurately.
Gaer
It's rather a matter of idiosyncracies. One can usually say it with no accent nucleus, but when you accentuate it, it might have a nucleus; especially when two items are being compared.
柔道は確かにきついけど、空手はそんなにひどくないよ。
Surely Judo is hard, but Karate, not so terrible.
Among the European languages, Italian is the most similar to Japanese for what concerns the pronunciation, both being syllabic languages.
And the vowels are similar in sound to Italian vowels (http://educationjapan.org/jguide/language.html).
Yes, dipthongs have their own rules of pronunciation.
I think that Ayoama was speaking of the simple 'e' , excluding dipthongs.
Ciao
TimeHP is following me here. Japanese vowels are similar to that of italian (or latin, for that matter), that is why James Curtis Hepburn (an american missionnary who, being a man of church, knew latin) luckily and intelligently chose that language as a base to transcribe japanese. Where would we be if he had taken english ...?
That is also why Japanese opera singers can sing quite well italian operas (written in kana), the reverse is true also, Italians can speak japanese quite well, provided they master (or give up) some intonation "tropisms".
This being said, the following examples are not conclusive of anything :
えーっ！？ Eh, as an exclamation
英語（えいご） eigo (ei, not e)
景気（けいき） kei ki (same thing)
健康（けんこう） ken ko (here it's en)
先生（せんせい） sen sei (both examples , en, ei)
the japanese e as a basic vowel is pronounced exactly as the french é (accent aigu) or "closed e". è (open e) does not exist in japanese.
That is also why Japanese opera singers can sing quite well italian operas (written in kana), the reverse is true also, Italians can speak japanese quite well, provided they master (or give up) some intonation "tropisms".
This being said, the following examples are not conclusive of anything :
えーっ！？ Eh, as an exclamation
英語（えいご） eigo (ei, not e)
景気（けいき） kei ki (same thing)
健康（けんこう） ken ko (here it's en)
先生（せんせい） sen sei (both examples , en, ei)
the japanese e as a basic vowel is pronounced exactly as the french é (accent aigu) or "closed e". è (open e) does not exist in japanese.
Are you going to "GRE 3000" on me too, like Flaminius?
Seriously Aoyama, it's just a matter of the viewpoint with which you are analyzing the pronunciation. You are basing it from the one of French pronunciation, which is strictly based on the syllable. In Japanese pronunciation, phonemes are based on moras (Is it all right I used "moras" as the plural form of "mora"?). Therefore, both え and い should be considered separate moras instead of えい as a single syllable. The same should be said of けん which consists of two discrete moras.
I believe け in けん is pronounced with an open "e," even if you claim it's nasal at the same time.
That would be defying the laws of phonetics, but then, nothing vital. Pronouncing é or è in japanese will never affect the meaning. Not the case between え and へ. As far as I know (and puting aside all unwanted chauvinism), saying that the japanese e is pronounced as the french é is a proven fact.
One point I want to make clear: Japanese dipthongs are often not dipthongs; Yes, sometimes they are dipthongs, but sometimes they are not.
Example: 景気回復 けいきかいふく keiki kaifuku (transliterated this way but no one actually pronounces it as dipthong; it's definitely けーきかいふく). In this case, えい is not a dipthong. Then, would you still see it as a closed "e"?
Example: 景気回復 けいきかいふく keiki kaifuku (transliterated this way but no one actually pronounces it as dipthong; it's definitely けーきかいふく). In this case, えい is not a dipthong. Then, would you still see it as a closed "e"?
This question may be rather a trivial matter, but how is chauvinism related here? Also, can you back this statement of yours with any insightful websites?
There are many languages with different phonetic signs in the world.
French people are proud of their language. They beleive it is the best
in the world and the most beautiful language in the world. But, it
does sound so beautiful to my ears.
One of my friends said that he,living many years in the Netherlands, can never pronounce correctly the Dutch names of persons or places.
Dutch people say ; " No, tha't not my name. " and give up any hope to
teach Japanese to pronouce their names correctly. It's not
a question of phonetic signs. Grand mother and grand father in Portuguese
sound the same to every people only except to portuguese and Brazilian peoples. There are African languages and many languages of the native
Americans, Scandinavian and slave languages.
By the way, Americans call say "サキ” for sake. not "seik".
It will be stupid to write saké to make Americans or French people
cforrectly. There are many phoenetic systems for each language.
Hiro Sasaki
I thought that you meant the language chauvism. I don't know if we can
call it chauvism or not. My view point is that there are many languages beside English and French.
Recently, the Royal Spanish Academy changed its policy. They decided to
respect more the grammars of other languages.
Hiro Sasaki
call it chauvism or not. My view point is that there are many languages beside English and French.
Recently, the Royal Spanish Academy changed its policy. They decided to
respect more the grammars of other languages.
Hiro Sasaki
In Wikipedia, I found a vowel chart for Japanese, and I have to disagree with what Aoyama wrote above.
The Japanese "e" is neither a French "é" nor a French "è". It's halfway between the two (like the Spanish and the Latin "e"). Japanese "e" is a mid vowel, while French "é" is a mid-close vowel. Although IPA often uses the same symbol for both, in more precise transcriptions mid "e" is written as [e] with a lowering diacritic (a small "T"-like subscript).
The Japanese "e" is neither a French "é" nor a French "è". It's halfway between the two (like the Spanish and the Latin "e"). Japanese "e" is a mid vowel, while French "é" is a mid-close vowel. Although IPA often uses the same symbol for both, in more precise transcriptions mid "e" is written as [e] with a lowering diacritic (a small "T"-like subscript).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology#Vowels
ムッシュー Aoyama, please take a look at this quotation from the Wiki article that Outsider mentioned:
[edit:I editted this to meet the "up-to-four-lines rule." of WRF]
Outsider is right in saying that the Japanese え is halfway between the French "è" and "é". I myself checked several books on English phonetics and confirmed that え is halfway between the closed "e" and the open "e" in English. If you are curious, please check out these books: 竹林滋 『英語音声学入門』 and 松坂ヒロシ 『英語音声学入門』.
It is really nonsense to limit the Japanese え to either of which; they are actually both within the accepted range. Is it really not childish to offend somebody you disagree with an unprovoked remark that is ungrounded?
ムッシュー Aoyama, please take a look at this quotation from the Wiki article that Outsider mentioned:
Reed the highlighted part and you'll agree that I'm not defying the laws of phonetics.
[edit:I editted this to meet the "up-to-four-lines rule." of WRF]Outsider is right in saying that the Japanese え is halfway between the French "è" and "é". I myself checked several books on English phonetics and confirmed that え is halfway between the closed "e" and the open "e" in English. If you are curious, please check out these books: 竹林滋 『英語音声学入門』 and 松坂ヒロシ 『英語音声学入門』.
It is really nonsense to limit the Japanese え to either of which; they are actually both within the accepted range. Is it really not childish to offend somebody you disagree with an unprovoked remark that is ungrounded?
Well, 十人十色... I still think that the japanese え, in standard pronounciation (excluding accents and the like) is a plain open é . At least, that is what we (myself and a cohort of many others) teach. But then, we may have been wrong for all that time ...
When it comes to nasal vowels (えん), that is different, the え becomes è as in french mène because of the rule :è consonant e (problème,élève, piège). The ん is pronounced in japanese, even if there is no vowel at the end. めん will thus be pronounced like men in english or mène in french.
No hard feelings.
When it comes to nasal vowels (えん), that is different, the え becomes è as in french mène because of the rule :è consonant e (problème,élève, piège). The ん is pronounced in japanese, even if there is no vowel at the end. めん will thus be pronounced like men in english or mène in french.
No hard feelings.
Well, Aoyama, I've spent some time surfing the net and listening to the pronunciation of the word Karaté and to my Italian ears it always sounded 'Karaté'.
Never I heard it pronounced without a pitch, an accent, a high tone or 'what-you-prefer-to-call-it' on the 'e'.
Thank you.
Ciao
Never I heard it pronounced without a pitch, an accent, a high tone or 'what-you-prefer-to-call-it' on the 'e'.
Thank you.
Ciao
I did not convert to anything (az ve halilah). The argument, from the very beginning was that え , as a basic vowel in japanese, is pronounced as in french é (or, for that matter, as the same sound equivalent in spanish or italian). えん (a compound of two elements) is totally different.