panjandrum said:Based on what I find by Googling, this may be an over-sophisticated attribution of meaning, somewhat ahead of its time.
CHUCKLE! These things are bound to emerge coincidentally from a brain that is swimming with inkhorn terms - the subconscious will jiggle the sentence to insistently insert where before withal whether the conscious likes it or not.foxfirebrand said:Oh fie! I just noticed the phrase "..a context where withal could pop out"...where withal...? Inadvertent, I swear.
May I ask, what are you, guys are talking about?panjandrum said:CHUCKLE! These things are bound to emerge coincidentally from a brain that is swimming with inkhorn terms - the subconscious will jiggle the sentence to insistently insert where before withal whether (!!!)the conscious likes it or not.
Nor had I come across this word, neither have found it in WR dictionary.panjandrum said:PS: thanks for inkhorn - what a charming word. I hadn't come across it with this meaning before
foxfirebrand said:I knew it would happen sooner or later. I'm glad I forwent the temptation to gin up a context where withal could pop out, rather than letting it happen spontaneously. And I deny any diffidence about using inkhorn terms.
Originally Posted by foxfirebrand
I knew it would happen sooner or later. I'm glad I forwent the temptation to gin up a context where withal could pop out, rather than letting it happen spontaneously. And I deny any diffidence about using inkhorn terms.
Fie - another inkhorn word.foxfirebrand said:Oh fie! I just noticed the phrase "..a context where withal could pop out"...where withal...? Inadvertent, I swear.
Originally Posted by panjandrum
CHUCKLE! These things are bound to emerge coincidentally from a brain that is swimming with inkhorn terms - the subconscious will jiggle the sentence to insistently insert where before withal whether (!!!)the conscious likes it or not.
Oh!, Inara, but I imagine you have Russian in your background, you're learning Spanish, and of course you know English. Admirable! And here thanks to you I could understand a little more the discussion . (Sorry the Fac.)Inés, I am not a translater...
President George Bush was awarded an honorary doctor of laws degree from Yale University in May 2001. Both his father and his grandfather received the same degree.
Nana, with the buzzing "z" as in the bee sound, as your teacher say!Like an Angel said:Thank you very much panjandrum, foxfirebrand and Edwin (I was worry if it was pronounced cudos or quiudos -in Spanish-, but everything is sorted out), thanks again!!!
Hi foxfirebrand!foxfirebrand said:So it's not quite settled? I agree about the final z or voiced-s sound, but that goes for AE.
It seemed to me that panj gave a second example starting with the ky sound, or quiudos as you transliterated for Spanish-speakers. And panj also used a double -ss, indicating to me at least an unvoiced s, as in Spanish. A speaker who harkened back to the Greek might also think of the word as singular and even use it that way.
I know Greek only as a vague rumor, but I'd guess the second BE variant pronounces the word after the original, so that the o sound is probably not as long as it sounds in AE.
Finally, the ky- to me indicates that the u must have been an upsilon, in which case the first syllable as pronounced by a French speaker would be even closer to the original.
Well, I sure get going, don't I? Not to the detriment of clarity I hope! Let's just say you now have a range of correct choices, depending on what side of the Atlantic you're on.
You did answer my question, thanks!foxfirebrand said:No, both voiced and unvoiced s sounds are used in AE and BE. I specifically mentioned AE because panj gave examples that seemed to differ.
I later thought the unvoiced-s sound might be the result of pronouncing the word more closely to the original Greek.
If I said I was growing red chilis in the garden, I would use a z sound for the plural, because the "borrowed word" chili is part of commonplace AE vocabulary.
If I said I was fixing chilis rellenos for breakfast, I would use an s sound because the much more specialized term hasn't "assimilated" into the vocabulary completely. It feels to me more like I'm quoting the term than saying it, using it out of my working vocabulary.
Maybe that's because it's a treat! I'd cook eggzz five days a week, and then decide on something special like huevosss rancherosss, and I might even roll the rrr a little.
I guess it boils down to whether you're using "foreign" terms naively or self-consciously. People who pick up kudos by word-of-mouth with the rest of their language won't necessarily know its origin. If you know a word's etymology, there's a tendency to preserve a little of the original pronunciation. Sometimes it's unconscious, sometimes it's pretentious, and sometimes there's a bit of xenophobic mockery involved.
I hope I answered your question. It was misleading of me to ascribe panj's variants to AE/BE differences.
Phryne said:Nana, with the buzzing "z" as in the bee sound, as your teacher say!
cudoz, o quiudoz
panjandrum said:F. ALLEN in G. Marx Groucho Lett. (1967) 73 A man sitting on a toilet bowl swung open the men's room door and added his kudo to the acclaim.
That is certainly how I read it - and why I liked it - and why I thought it would amuse others herefoxfirebrand said:[...] I'm also puzzled by the scant praise given to Marxist humor here. [...] I think "added his kudo" might've been ironic and stylishly déclassé, in keeping with the setting-- meant as a sendup or travesty of whatever it was that was being praised in the first place. [...]
Edwin said:I learned the word kudos many years ago reading Time Magazine. Time had (maybe still has, I haven't read it lately) a column each week named Kudos listing various awards and honors that people of note had received. Things like:
foxfirebrand said:To me the ironic thing about the honorary DLL from Yale arises from the fact that Bush really did earn a Master's degree from that same institution. What's ironic is the way his academic achievement worked against him in politics.
The only election George W Bush ever lost was for a state-assemly seat from his West Texas district, back in the 80s. Analyzing the defeat afterwards, his handlers decided Bush had lost because he came across as a smarty-assed college type who'd gone to Yale.
Bush vowed never to make that mistake again, and has taken what I think can be called real pains, to come off as "just folks" ever since-- no easy task for a man of his mental acuity. Of course if you want to think a genuine dummy is capable of doing what it takes to get a Presidential nomination and win the election (twice!), that's up to you. Me, I don't believe everything I see on TV and read about in the press. Especially about Republicans-- Reagan (the Cold War) was portrayed as an idiot too, and so was Eisenhower (WWII). Ike used to joke privately about the way his rambling syntactic divagations kept the press at bay. They developed a what's-the-use attitude toward asking him difficult questions, ended up not getting their job done-- and copped a superior attitude toward it all!