Ladino: Is it understood by Spanish natives?

JLanguage

Senior Member
USA: American English, Learning Hebrew and Spanish
I invite all native speakers of Spanish and even those who aren't native to try reading this website:
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/ladinoa1.html

Here are two more samples:
http://www.omniglot.com/babel/ladino.htm
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spanish-Ladino/Texts/Stanzas_of_Joseph_by_De_Toledo.html

I believe that Ladino is based on medieval Castillian (Old Spanish), but I do not know if that means that it is too different from Modern Spanish to be understood by Spanish-speakers.

Cheers,
-Jonathan
 
  • Tabac

    Senior Member
    U. S. - English
    I'm not a native speaker of Spanish, but I was able to understand the first example almost totally. The second had some forms and words I couldn't understand. I suspect it is older than the first.
     

    Marcus

    Member
    Catalan + Spanish
    I a m a native spanish and catalan speaker from Spain, and I just wonder why in the world would someone want to understand some kind'a weird bad-written variation of spanish called ladino.
    I have been taking a look at the links above. My conclusion is that Ladino is a way to write spanish in a diferent way, without loosing the sounds of the language.

    Here's an example for your understanding:

    - the Lord scattered them over the face of all countries. - original english

    -"the Lord scaterede hem on the face of alle cuntrees." - I would call it Engleese
     

    JLanguage

    Senior Member
    USA: American English, Learning Hebrew and Spanish
    Marcus said:
    I a m a native spanish and catalan speaker from Spain, and I just wonder why in the world would someone want to understand some kind'a weird bad-written variation of spanish called ladino.
    I have been taking a look at the links above. My conclusion is that Ladino is a way to write spanish in a diferent way, without loosing the sounds of the language.

    Here's an example for your understanding:

    - the Lord scattered them over the face of all countries. - original english

    -"the Lord scaterede hem on the face of alle cuntrees." - I would call it Engleese
    There are some interesting Jewish writings in Ladino. Admittedly, not enough to justify learning it before Spanish, but what you say about Ladino is not true. Ladino may have been a dialect of medieval Spanish, but I think the way the language is today it should always be considered a separate language from Spanish. Verbally, they're not really even mutually intelligible.

    Oh yeah, and the reason it's spelled differently from Spanish is because there's no real fixed spelling system. It could be written using modern Spanish spelling, which would make it look a lot closer to Spanish.
     

    Marcus

    Member
    Catalan + Spanish
    What I've seen, reading the text is that I understood it all without any trouble... I just had the need to get used to the different spelling, and that's it. No problems of comprehension. Not a word... I wouldn't consider it as a whole different language, maybe a dialect, but I think it shouldn't even be called a dialect... I'll really go over it again to see if I find some grammar or lexicon variations.

    I have the luck to be grown in a part of the world where there's 2 official languages. The luck to have as native languages, spanish and catalan. Both coming from the latin and both pretty similar, but the luck to speak both at the same time, with the same fluency makes the difference.
    Having both of them takes you closer to other parent languages as portugese, italian and french making it easier to understand. There's a simple reason for it, all of them com directly from the latin, and most of the words are pretty much the same... Just let me demonstrate it:

    spanish + catalan - italian - french - english
    hierro + ferro - fierro - fer - iron
    higo + figa - fico - figue - prickly pear
    mesa - taula - tavola - table - table

    Adding languages sometimes makes it easier to understand.

    Now, going back to subject... Ladin has no grammar neither lexicon differences with spanish and/or catalan. My impressions are:
    1)Ladin is the result of the loose of the the written language
    2)Ladin looks to be written as a foreigner would speak it. With pronunciation problems.
    3) Ladin even have very close similarities with catalan. (let's see them)

    Ladin: Estimadas sinyoras i estimados sinyores,
    Español: Estimadas señoras y estimados señores
    català: Estimades senyores i estimats senyors

    Ladin: i les digo "grasias" des del fondo de mi korason
    Español: Y les digo "gracias" des del fondo de mi corazón

    Ladin: estudios akademikos i lavoros sientifikos sovre la lingua i la istoria sefaradi
    Español:Estudios academicos y trabajos científicos sobre la lengua y la historia sefaradi
    ("lavoros")<-- comes from the italian verb "lavorare" = to work

    So my conclusion is that Ladin is a misspelling from the spanish language.

    Sorry for the length of the text and also for my lack of words in english as long for my grammar... :)) hahaa
    JLanguage said:
    I believe that Ladino is based on medieval Castillian (Old Spanish), but I do not know if that means that it is too different from Modern Spanish to be understood by Spanish-speakers.
    -Jonathan
    Ladin doesn't come from old spanish because there's no old words written in the whole text. As well as in english, you use to use old words as "thee" referring to the lord, etc... All the words used in the text are used in the modern spanish. I even noticed that there's some slang words in it.

    Best Regards...
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    JLanguage

    Senior Member
    USA: American English, Learning Hebrew and Spanish
    Marcus said:
    Ladin doesn't come from old spanish because there's no old words written in the whole text. As well as in english, you use to use old words as "thee" referring to the lord, etc... All the words used in the text are used in the modern spanish. I even noticed that there's some slang words in it.
    Best Regards...
    Not sure how accurate this is, but according to wikipedia, Ladino is a derivative of medieval Spanish:

    Ladino is a Romance language, derived mainly from Old Castilian (Spanish) and Hebrew. Speakers are currently almost exclusively Sephardic Jews, but historically there have also been Ashkenazi speakers — for example, in Thessaloniki and Istanbul. The language is also called Judæo-Spanish, Sefardi, Dzhudezmo, Judezmo, and Spanyol; Haquitía (from the Arabic haka حكى, "tell") refers to the dialect of North Africa, especially Morocco. The dialect of the Oran area of Algeria was called Tetuani or Tetauni, after the Moroccan town Tétouan, since many Oranais Jews came from this city. In Hebrew, the language is called Spanyolit.
    How is it possible that Ladino is has so few diffferences from Spanish, when most of the extant speakers had/have been living in the Ottoman Empire/Turkey, separated from spanish speakers for 500 years?

    I think I found the answer to my own question, From the Jewish Languages Research Website:
    Judeo-Spanish/Judezmo/Ladino - Jewish Language Research Website

    After the expulsion from Spain in 1492, Judeo-Spanish developed independently of Iberian Spanish. Written Judeo-Spanish in the 16th century followed Iberian Spanish literary norms, but the distance from Spain and the development of Judeo-Spanish resulted in literary and linguistic differences in the Judeo-Spanish of later centuries. Vernacular forms entered the written language, and many words and expressions from the local languages (Turkish, Greek, and Balkan languages) were fused in Judeo-Spanish.
     
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    Camui

    Senior Member
    Spain / Spanish
    There aren't any differences betwen that text and a standard spanish, just the spelling

    Es kon una immensia alegria i agradesimiento ke saludo vuestra honoravle prezensia en la inaugurasion del Sentro para los Estudios de Ladino ke yeva el nombre de mi mujer i el mio ; el primer sentro ke dedikara estudios ...

    En con una inmensa alegría y agradecimiento que saludo vuestra honorable presencia en la inauguración del Centro para los Estudios Ladinos que lleva el nombre de mi mujer y el mío; el primer centro que se dedicara a...

    And I understad everything in the audio example in that page, the speaker just change the j for ll. "muller (mujer) que" "una tillera (tijera)"

    El segundo mp3s parece que es una turista britanica que ha vivido unos años en España... la verdad jeje :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Marcus said:
    I have the luck to be grown in a part of the world where there's 2 official languages. The luck to have as native languages, spanish and catalan. Both coming from the latin and both pretty similar, but the luck to speak both at the same time, with the same fluency makes the difference.
    Having both of them takes you closer to other parent languages as portugese, italian and french making it easier to understand. There's a simple reason for it, all of them com directly from the latin, and most of the words are pretty much the same... Just let me demonstrate it:

    spanish + catalan - italian - french - english
    hierro + ferro - fierro - fer - iron
    higo + figa - fico - figue - prickly pear
    mesa - taula - tavola - table - table

    Adding languages sometimes makes it easier to understand.

    Now, going back to subject... Ladin has no grammar neither lexicon differences with spanish and/or catalan. My impressions are:
    1)Ladin is the result of the loose of the the written language
    2)Ladin looks to be written as a foreigner would speak it. With pronunciation problems.
    3) Ladin even have very close similarities with catalan. (let's see them)

    Ladin: Estimadas sinyoras i estimados sinyores,
    Español: Estimadas señoras y estimados señores
    català: Estimades senyores i estimats senyors

    Ladin: i les digo "grasias" des del fondo de mi korason
    Español: Y les digo "gracias" des del fondo de mi corazón

    Ladin: estudios akademikos i lavoros sientifikos sovre la lingua i la istoria sefaradi
    Español:Estudios academicos y trabajos científicos sobre la lengua y la historia sefaradi
    ("lavoros")<-- comes from the italian verb "lavorare" = to work

    So my conclusion is that Ladin is a misspelling from the spanish language.

    Sorry for the length of the text and also for my lack of words in english as long for my grammar... :)) hahaa
    Just one thing: "higo" is "fig" in English - not "prickly pear."

    And it seems to me as well that Ladino is very similar to modern Spanish except for the spelling. I don't know anything about it, but that's just the impression I get.
     

    Edwin

    Senior Member
    USA / Native Language: English
    It seems likely that Ladino is to Spanish as Yiddish is to German. See the article on Yiddish at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish where it says:
    ......there are those who suggest that Yiddish is merely a dialect of German, not different enough to be classed as a separate language. Yiddish and German share a large portion of their respective vocabularies, and a number of similar grammatical structures. Some German speakers are reportedly able to understand spoken Yiddish, considering it similar to German spoken by Slavs. These observations lead some observers to describe Yiddish as a German dialect rather than an independent language.
     

    BTCarroll

    Member
    English USA
    I see this thread has been without action for a year, but I recently learned that munchos for muchos and asina for asi were characterists of Ladino, spoken by Conversos, or Crypto-Jews, families that converted from Judism to Catholicism to escape the Inquisition. Many of these families maintained secret communities to practice their traditions.

    Many of my students in Central California (virtually all of them immigrants from Michoacan or Jalisco) use munchos and asina in their everyday Spanish.

    So I'm curious:

    1) Are these simply part of the regional Spanish of Jalisco and Michoacan?

    2) Is the Spanish of Jalisco and Michoacan influenced by Ladino, or does this commonality demonstrate that it shares with Ladino a common background in Proto-Castillian? (i.e., Proto-Castillian had the 'n', but modern Spanish lost it.)

    3) What is the possibility that my students represent a community with roots in the 16th and 17th Century Sefardic Converso migration to Mexico?

    Anybody have any answers?

    --Brian
     

    diegodbs

    Senior Member
    Spain-Spanish
    BTCarroll said:
    I see this thread has been without action for a year, but I recently learned that munchos for muchos and asina for asi were characterists of Ladino, spoken by Conversos, or Crypto-Jews, families that converted from Judism to Catholicism to escape the Inquisition. Many of these families maintained secret communities to practice their traditions.

    Many of my students in Central California (virtually all of them immigrants from Michoacan or Jalisco) use munchos and asina in their everyday Spanish.

    So I'm curious:

    1) Are these simply part of the regional Spanish of Jalisco and Michoacan?

    2) Is the Spanish of Jalisco and Michoacan influenced by Ladino, or does this commonality demonstrate that it shares with Ladino a common background in Proto-Castillian? (i.e., Proto-Castillian had the 'n', but modern Spanish lost it.)

    3) What is the possibility that my students represent a community with roots in the 16th and 17th Century Sefardic Converso migration to Mexico?

    Anybody have any answers?
    muncho, cha.
    1.
    adj. ant. mucho. U. c. vulg.


    asina.
    (De asín).
    1. adv. m. vulg. así.

    Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados

    1.- Es una forma vulgar del español moderno. También se daba y aún se puede dar en España, pero se considera un vulgarismo y está prácticamente extinguido.

    2.- No está influenciado por el ladino. El ladino representa una forma antigua del castellano.

    3.- Posibilidad prácticamente ninguna. Los conversos no podían ir a América. A Cervantes se le negó esa posibilidad porque no era "cristiano viejo".
     

    SofiaB

    Senior Member
    English Asia
    The reaon Ladino is spelled differently is because various alphabets have been used for it. Also there are some minor difference in vocabulary and pronuciation depending on where the speaker comes from.As previously mentioned words from other languages and Hebrew are mixed in. Some speakers have retained the old Spanish pronunciation. Which reminds me of Portuguese as well, ex. jand g are sometimes pronounced as in French or Portuguese.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    SofiaB said:
    The reaon Ladino is spelled differently is because various alphabets have been used for it.
    These are not just differences in spelling. The pronunciation is different, as well.

    When I saw the word muncho for the first time, I couldn't help being reminded of Portuguese muito. Although you can't tell from how we spell it, the u is actually nasal in this word. If we ignored the i, we would be able to write it munto.

    j3st3r said:
    I'm not a native but I tried to read it, too.

    It wasn't too difficult, but it just looks terrible to me, especially the K.
    There are alternative spellings for Ladino. See the links in this thread.
     

    marz81

    New Member
    Spain - Spanish
    Hi!!
    I have only have a look to the first link and the text reminds me of something, as Grekh recalls... This Ladino seems quite similar to sending texts with the mobile/cell phone in Spain.
    There is always some controversy (I don't know if that is the right word, I'm sorry for the possible mistakes) about if sending texts is making the education become poor in Spain. Since people, especially teenagers, want to write as much as possible in just one text (and so they don't have to pay more), we use some abreviations, which make people who is still learning the laguage make lots of mistakes... it's similar as when in English people write "2" for "to" or "U R" for "you are"...
    here it's an example:
    "Hi! how are you? can we meet later?"
    Spanish: "Hola! Cómo estás? podemos quedar más tarde?"
    A text in the mobile phone could be: "Ola! komo stas? podemos kedar mas tarde?"
    There are people who also change "ll" for "y" like "llegar" for "yegar" but it's only to save characters and being able to write more!
    I know this is not a great post about Ladino, culturally speaking, but I just wanted to highlight the similarities!!!!
     

    yarden be yehudah

    New Member
    Spanish/Hebrew
    I can understand quite well.

    The spelling in the three texts is slightly different.

    Regards to all.
    I am fluent in Spanish and can speak Ladino pretty well, I can also read it in the Hebrew script. It is very similar. If you are fluent in Spanish, you can understand fairly well, but won't be able to understand every word.

    I am a speaker of Judaeo Spanish (Ladino, but we usually call Judaeo- Espanyol) I can read it in Hebrew script, in fact I usually refuse to write in an other way. I am also fluent in Spanish. Judaeo Spanish is fairly easy to understand by speakers of Spanish. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd say about 6.
    Judaeo Spanish is 1492 Spanish mixed with 4% Hebrew, about 20% Turkish and Arabic, 60% Old Spanish and Portuguese and 7% other. It's really neat.
    What I've seen, reading the text is that I understood it all without any trouble... I just had the need to get used to the different spelling, and that's it. No problems of comprehension. Not a word... I wouldn't consider it as a whole different language, maybe a dialect, but I think it shouldn't even be called a dialect... I'll really go over it again to see if I find some grammar or lexicon variations.
    There ARE differences. This language is mixed with Hebrew, Arabic, and Turkish. Did you know that up to 31% of ALL Ladino words is not from Spanish?

    Here's a sample:

    Shalom (or Bonjur) Komo estash vozotros? Yo esto muy bien, gracias. Esto es lo ke me paso oy: Primeiro, yo me levanto i entonses desayuno. Me visto i pongo mi chapeo i salgo de la kaza. Yo vo al trabasho i kuando regreso, dayaneo. Despues ke yo me levanto miro de la bentana i veo ke mis amigos van a Bet Knesset. Esto tarde, tyengo menester de darme prisa porke tyengo la avtaha de avlar kon el rabi. Despues ya es ora de acostarme. Shalom!
    ¡Hola! ¿Como estais (estan)? Estoy muy bien gracias. Esto es lo que me paso hoy: Primero, me levanto y entonces desayuno. Pongo la ropa (Me visto , only in Spain) y pongo mi sombrero y salgo de la casa. Voy al trabajo y cuando regreso, descanso. Despues que me levanto. miro de la ventana y veo que mis amigos van a la sinagoga. Estoy tarde, necesito de darme prisa proque tengo la esperanza de hablar con el rabi. Despues, ya es hora de acostarme.

    Hello! How are you (all)? I am very well thanks. This is what happened to me today: First, I get up and then I eat breakfast. I get dressed and I put on my hat and I leave the house. I go to work and when I return, I rest. After I get up I look out of the window and I see that my friends are going to the synagogue. I am late, I need to hurry because I have the hope to speak with the rabbi. Afterward, it is already time to go to bed.

    List of languages from which each Ladino word is:
    Shalom- Hebrew (hello)
    Bonjur- French (duh!) (hello)
    estash- Old Castillian Sp. (you pl. are)
    chapeo- Old Portuguese
    vo- old form of voy in Old Sp.(meaning I go)
    trabasho- Sp (modern= trabajo)
    dayaneo- Turkish- it means "I rest" it is conjugated
    like all Spanish verbs. It is slightly adapted from
    Turkish so you can conjugate it like Sp.
    Bet Knesset- Hebrew- synagogue
    menester- Old Sp and Portuguese (to need)
    avtaha- Turkish ( meaning hope)
     
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    Zona

    New Member
    USA English
    When in Istanbul in 2004 studying Ladino as spoken by Sephardic Jews in Turkey for the last 500 years, the song Ben seni severim was a very popular song. I bought the CD on which there were both Turkish and Ladino songs. I enjoyed the music, understood the Ladino (Djudeo-espanyol) but am just learning Turkish on my own. I bought their newest CD while in Turkey this year.

    Note: This post has been moved from this thread.
     
    ^
    That's interesting, I think any Spanish or Portuguese speaker is able to understand Ladino. I don't think there are many Ladino speakers left in Istanbul, though.
    Good luck with Turkish :)

    Note: This post has been moved from this thread.
     

    Zona

    New Member
    USA English
    There are about 8,000 Ladino speakers still in Istanbul. Most are older and many younger Sefardics understand their grandparents but do not speak Ladino except for day to day basics. After the establishment of the state of Israel, many Sefardics moved there. Many return for the summer. At one time there were over 40,000 Ladino speaking Sefardics in Istanbul; guests of the Ottoman sultan. They lived there in relative peace for about 500 years.

    Note: This post has been moved from this thread.
     

    Zona

    New Member
    USA English
    Ladino is not a derivative of Spanish, it is 16th century Spanish spoken as it was spoken than in Spain by Jews and non-Jews. Expelled from Spain in 1492, it was taken with the Jews through many countries; Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey as well as across north Africa. Each place added a few words and some structures. Hebrew actually had the least influence because only the rabbis spoke Hebrew; the people spoke Aramaic and Spanish (dialects of the regions from whence they came; ie. Aragonese, Castillian, Andalucian etc) and hence variances with the the Ladino population. It is still spoken by the older generation of Sephardic Jews in Istanbul...I speak 21st century Spanish and had little trouble understanding them and they understood me. Vocabulary is different from 21st century. Spelling reflects Turkish use of Latin alphabet which is completely phonetic. You write the word the way you say it: hence, taxi is taksi. Ladino has been written with Hebrew letters, Arabic letters, and Latin letters; depending on the era.
     

    estro

    Member
    UK/English
    Shalom- Hebrew (hello)
    Bonjur- French (duh!) (hello)
    estash- Old Castillian Sp. (you pl. are)
    chapeo- Old Portuguese
    vo- old form of voy in Old Sp.(meaning I go)
    trabasho- Sp (modern= trabajo)
    dayaneo- Turkish- it means "I rest" it is conjugated
    like all Spanish verbs. It is slightly adapted from
    Turkish so you can conjugate it like Sp.
    Bet Knesset- Hebrew- synagogue
    menester- Old Sp and Portuguese (to need)
    avtaha- Turkish ( meaning hope)
    To be fair, at least four of those words are still used in modern Spanish: "estash" = "estáis" (used in Spain), "vo" = "vos" (the voseo form is used by millions of people in the Southern Cone and Central America), "trabasho" = "trabajo", "menester" = "menester"... and are written almost exactly (or) the same. As for "Shalom" and "Bonjur", come on...

    All I can say is, judging from what I've seen, the Jews who were expelled from Spain preserved their language amazingly well because I have not read a single text in Ladino that, baring a few bits of vocabulary, I haven't been able to understand like at least 95%. The grammar seems exactly the same to me. In fact, it just looks like Spanish written by a bad speller.

    I think I will add Ladino to the short list of languages I know, because without having studying it, or even knowing about it until a short while ago, I can understand it almost perfectly, and I'm not even a native Spanish speaker. I can't believe that any hispanohablante wouldn't be able to understand written Ladino (when written in the latin alphabet, obviously) with great ease.
    I am a speaker of Judaeo Spanish (Ladino, but we usually call Judaeo- Espanyol) I can read it in Hebrew script, in fact I usually refuse to write in an other way. I am also fluent in Spanish. Judaeo Spanish is fairly easy to understand by speakers of Spanish. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd say about 6.
    No offence, but what from what I've seen on this site, Wikipedia and a few other pages I would say it is more like a 9 and a half. I can understand it much better than Portuguese, Catalan, Galician, Asturian or any other Romance language that I've seen (written). In fact, I can understand it better than Scots or even the local dialect still spoken by people where I live until about like 50 years ago! I'm not exaggerating, really.
     
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    alexacohen

    Banned
    Spanish. Spain
    I have no trouble at all understanding it or translating it. I agree it's basically old Spanish, but there are words from many other languages, including Portuguese, Galician, Turkish, and of course Hebrew.

    But it is not that easy to understand, unless you are a person fairly interested in languages.

    And here, we all are.
     

    Zona

    New Member
    USA English
    Instead of "reading" the ladino texts; say them. They are phonetic (with the Turkish variation of the Latin Alphabet). Ladino is 16th century Spanish but was a spoken language not written. When written, for years it was written with Hebrew letters or Arabic script. After Turkey adopted the Latin alphabet, it has been written so. Modern day Sephardi use the Latin alphabet with the characteristics of where they are from now. There is very little Hebrew in the language because most Sephardi did not speak it. Turkish words do show up in Istanbul as do Arabic words in Israel. It is being taught in Israel at the University and at Tufts University in the US. A newpaper published in Istanbul (Shalom) has one of its 12 pages in djudeo-espanyol. In Spanish speaking countries and the US Sephardi have added their own flavor to the language.
    Enjoy!
     

    lostsoul31

    New Member
    Mexican Spanish and English
    I see this thread has been without action for a year, but I recently learned that munchos for muchos and asina for asi were characterists of Ladino, spoken by Conversos, or Crypto-Jews, families that converted from Judism to Catholicism to escape the Inquisition. Many of these families maintained secret communities to practice their traditions.

    Many of my students in Central California (virtually all of them immigrants from Michoacan or Jalisco) use munchos and asina in their everyday Spanish.

    So I'm curious:

    1) Are these simply part of the regional Spanish of Jalisco and Michoacan?

    2) Is the Spanish of Jalisco and Michoacan influenced by Ladino, or does this commonality demonstrate that it shares with Ladino a common background in Proto-Castillian? (i.e., Proto-Castillian had the 'n', but modern Spanish lost it.)

    3) What is the possibility that my students represent a community with roots in the 16th and 17th Century Sefardic Converso migration to Mexico?

    Anybody have any answers?

    --Brian
    To tell you the truth I'm one of those people! My family is of direct descent from Sefardic Conversos who happened to have settled in Michoacan and Jalisco. I think also in northern Mexico some people still speak like this too, I live in a border to a Mexican state and a few people here also speak like this. Both sides of my family would always say Muncho instead of Mucho and my grandma's parents and relatives would often say Ansina however they came directly from Spain and never mixed with the local native population. With my grandma's family they never mixed dairy products with milk products and seperated the dishes to serve both foods. So yeah and there are lots of towns and villages in that area where they actually have proven that Sefardic converts settled and founded many of the towns from that region. So I think it's very possible that a remnant of Ladino speakers managed to survive in that region and is due to the concentration of Sefardic Anusim, after all im living proof of this lol. I do not speak like this form of Spanish because my family has assimilated completely into the rest of Mexican society and thus my parents generation and on forgot about this. Sorry for the long reply.
     

    tokai

    Member
    English
    In Wikipedia it says "As a Jewish language, it is influenced heavily by Hebrew and Aramaic, but also Arabic, Turkish and to a lesser extent Greek and other languages where Sephardic exiles settled around the world, primarily throughout the Ottoman Empire"... yet in the texts mentioned in the previous posts, and also in the newspaper articles in the link posted above, you can read almost everything as if it were just modern Spanish written with a different spelling.

    Hi again,
    In Turkey, Ladinos have the newpaper "Şalom", if you want to see if you can understand the written language or just curious, Here is the link, for example: Una kestyon a la kuala es difisil de responder
    The Judeo-Espanyol section of that newspaper (or at least the online version) only amounts to 3 current articles. The rest of it is written entirely in Turkish.
     

    mediterraneo24

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    In Wikipedia it says "As a Jewish language, it is influenced heavily by Hebrew and Aramaic, but also Arabic, Turkish and to a lesser extent Greek and other languages where Sephardic exiles settled around the world, primarily throughout the Ottoman Empire"
    Ladino is a jewish language only beacause it was spoken by the jews all those years, but actually it's an actual phase of spanish from medieval times.
    I consider it to be historic spanish rather than a different dialect. And I also think that turkish/greek/arabic/etc influances are regional, but hebrew influance definitely has a strong presence.
     

    tokai

    Member
    English
    Hi mediterraneo,
    I don't think I've read any medieval Spanish, but I have read a bit of Cervantes, and the language used in, say, the original version of Don Quijote is quite different from modern Spanish. As I mentioned, Ladino (based on what I've seen) seems to me just like modern day Spanish (from maybe Andalucia) spelt slightly differently and with the (very) occasional exotic-ish word thrown in... In the articles from the newspaper mentioned in a previous post, you could basically just change the spelling of the words and read them exactly the same as if they were written in modern standard Spanish.

    If der was an Inglish vershon of Ladino, dis is ow it wud seem to mee. Mor o less juss modern Inglish wid a fonetic spellin baised on a sertan dialect.
     

    jdotjdot89

    Senior Member
    American English
    "Jewish languages" developed where a strong and insular Jewish community spoke the language of the country where they were living while implementing elements of Hebrew, Aramaic, and other surrounding languages from the community's history (or future if eventually displaced). The degree to which these languages or dialects vary from the main language differs. Yiddish is quite distinct from both German and Hebrew, though as said above, many German-speakers can understand plenty of Yiddish. The same is true of Ladino for Spanish, though to a greater extent. In fact, the same is taking place among Jews in the United States now, who speak a variant of English that frankly cannot be understood by the average American due to the enormous number of Hebrew, Yiddish, and Aramaic borrowings, though it is not well-documented. I see here a large argument taking place whether Ladino is a "language" or not, though no such argument exists over the American version (where it is generally assumed just to be a community's internal slang).

    I find it particularly dismissive to just wave it away as "poorly spelled Spanish"--that is a premature judgement completely dismissing Ladino's history and development. Ladino developed along the same timeframe as Modern Spanish, just within a different community that never standardized it, but it developed from Old Spanish just like Modern Castilian Spanish did. Whether the small grammatical differences and the vocabulary differences qualify it as a separate language or a dialect is an argument that linguists have been having for years over many different language/dialect distinctions. However, to call it simply a "misspelling" is a grossly prejudiced misjudgment, as it boasts a history equally as old as Modern Spanish. I think time would be better spent examining the differences between the two for academic and interest purposes.

    I possess Ladino versions of the Jewish prayers "Adon Olam" (Ruler of the World) and "Ein K'eloheinu" (There Is No One Like Our God) that I can post if anyone is interested as more sample texts.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I possess Ladino versions of the Jewish prayers "Adon Olam" (Ruler of the World) and "Ein K'eloheinu" (There Is No One Like Our God) that I can post if anyone is interested as more sample texts.
    It would be nice if you could. I think they would be welcome additions to the thread. :)
     

    willikvrvf

    New Member
    Chilean Spanish: shileno
    Hola!
    It is very easy to read and understand, not more difficult that the creole languages papiamento (in the Netherlands Antilles) or chabacano (in the Philippines), that are very similar to Spanish but with different spelling.

    Remember that "a language is a dialect with an army and navy" (Max Weinreich).

    Saludos!
     

    jdotjdot89

    Senior Member
    American English
    Even for the non-standardized spelling system that Ladino has, I'm under the impression that these spellings are pretty non-standard. However, this is what I have.

    "Ein K'Eloheinu"
    No como muestro Dio, no como muestro señor
    No como muestro rey, no como muestro salvador

    Quen como muestro Dio, quen como muestro señor
    Quen como muestro rey, quen como muestro salvador

    Loaremos a muestro Dio, loaremos a muestro señor
    Loaremos a muestro rey, loaremos a muestro salvador

    Bendicho a muestro Dio, bendicho a muestro señor
    Bendicho a muestro rey, bendicho a muestro salvador

    Tu sos muestro Dio, tu sos muestro señor
    Tu sos muestro rey, tu sos muestro salvador


    No puc trobar l'altra cançó ara mateix, malhauradament.
     

    La Taher

    New Member
    Spanish & Portuguese
    Of course coversos were allowed to travel to the Americas. Why do you think that the "Santa Inquisición was instituted in Mexico, Lima and other "virreinatos?" The narratives about - us - the descendants of marranos in Latin America has been extensively documented - both academically and via oral histories.
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    My mother tongue is Catalan and I speak Spanish at almost a native level.

    I understand it all. It seems like a kind of Spanish written in a more phonemic way:
    * c before a, o, u and consonant and qu -> k
    * h -> disappears
    * ll -> y
    * b -> v
    * c before e, i -> s
    * ñ -> ny
    * g before e, i -> j

    And there are some words which are different from Standard Spanish (munchos -> muchos; lavoro -> trabajo, etc.)

    Another characteristic is the "m" that replaces "n" at the beginnig (mosotros -> nosotros; muestro -> nuestro, etc.)

    I would call it a Spanish dialect.
     

    El Yonko

    New Member
    Spanish Spain
    According to your question, yes, I can understand the text completely.

    Now, I really think calling that a "language" requires way too much faith. Seriously. It's just Spanish written phonetically and with lots of grammar mistakes. Is the only way I can describe that text.

    It's like you were to read in English something like: Eye Am de Vig Man and Eye like 2 rite lika moron.

    No offense but, I would NOT call that ladino thing a language. I've known native Spanish speakers with no education at all that would write exactly like that, and they are no "ladino" speakers, just people that doesn't know how to write properly.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (US Northeast)
    Ladino is more than just Spanish, it's a unique form of 15th century Spanish that has been preserved. That's awesome. It gives a good idea of how old Castilian was spoken, and also proves that this pronunciation was kept much later than was originally expected (at least by part of the population in Spain at that time).

    /s/ and /z/ have not merged into /s/
    /ʃ/ and /ʒ/ have not merged and have not been retracted to /χ/
    /dz/ and /ts/ have not merged and have not been simplified and forwarded to /θ/
    /b/ and /v/ or /β/ have not merged either
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Los hablantes letrados de español no tenemos dificultad para entender el (d)judeoespañol (ya nadie, en medios filólogicos al menos, lo llama ladino), más allá de pequeñas dificultades de vocabulario debidas a la integración de palabras hebreas, turcas, francesas, italianas, inglesas, etc. que el djudeoespañol integró en su diáspora tras la expulsión de Sefarad a finales del s. XV.
    De todas maneras las palabras ajenas al español son pocas y no impiden la comprensión pues las más de las veces las aclara suficientemente el contexto.
    El que esto escribe es un lector ávido de la literatura sefardí, la que llevaron al exilio, especialmente su romancero, y la que crearon en la diáspora.
     

    Hulalessar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Everyone agrees that reading Ladino presents no great problem to those who know Spanish, but what about the spoken language? I found some examples on YouTube and they were by no means easy to follow. Sometimes I could understand several words together, but other times I could barely understand anything. Over all I did not find it possible to follow the flow.
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Normally, Ladino is not written in Latin script, nor in Hebrew square script, but in the so-called Rashi script. I would maintain that reading Ladino does present something of a problem, unless you are used to Rashi script.
     
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