Beachxhair
Senior Member
English-England
How did Spanish ll in words like llamar, llave evolve from the Latin cl of clamare and clavis?
That's really interesting. Are there any articles written about this, or any linguists who have studied and commented on it?There is an area between Aragon and Catalonia where the initial groups of consonant + 'l' have evolved to consonant + /ʎ/, for example, 'cllau' [kʎau] (Spanish 'llave', Catalan 'clau']. It has been suggested that this pronunciation could have existed in the past in Spanish as an intermediate change.
This holds for standard Italian only.Venetian, Tuscan and Sicilian dialects (the latter just in a small area near Agrigento) adopt the /tʃ/ phoneme. Namely not kiave, kiesa, kiamare but tʃiave, tʃiesa, tʃiamare. (key, church, call).Oddly, French and Italian maintain the /k/: clef, chiave, chiamare.
Lots of linguists have studied this, beginning with Menéndez Pidal himself. Search for 'dialecto ribagorzano' in internet.That's really interesting. Are there any articles written about this, or any linguists who have studied and commented on it?
But not the /l/ in Italian, so even there the cluster /kl/ must have been palatalized at some stage.Oddly, French and Italian maintain the /k/: clef, chiave, chiamare.
In Italian, /l/ itself is palatalized in a consunant cluster (blancum>bianco, planum>piano, flumen>fiume, etc). It is not the /k/ or the cluster /kl/ that is palatalized.But not the /l/ in Italian, so even there the cluster /kl/ must have been palatalized at some stage.
But not the /l/ in Italian, so even there the cluster /kl/ must have been palatalized at some stage.
Probably yes with some exception like gloria, glossa, ... (but ghiaccio < glacium, ghiandola < glandula, ...).Did that happen in general to consonant + l clusters? I had never realised!...
Is it a vowel or rather a semivowel?... Edit: Just saw Berndf's comment. Was the /l/ to /i/ palatalization? The liquid consonants changed to a vowel.
Probably yes with some exception like gloria, glossa, ... (but ghiaccio < glacium, ghiandola < glandula, ...).
Is it a vowel or rather a semivowel?
I searched for 'dialecto ribagorzano', but no linguistic studies/articles came up. Do you have any particular articles you could recommend me? ThanksLots of linguists have studied this, beginning with Menéndez Pidal himself. Search for 'dialecto ribagorzano' in internet.
Of course, but all your examples (except of parlare) are "parole dotte" (or cultismos), not direct contunuations of the corresponding Latin words.I shouldn't say that /l/ is lost completely after wathever consonant.
Italian has a lot of words with this cluster. These are a few examples.
Blaterare, clausura, flagranza, gloria, plettro, splendido parlare, slancio, atletico....
I know these studies only indirectly. The Spanish Wikipedia article and its "bibliografía" section should be a good starting point.I searched for 'dialecto ribagorzano', but no linguistic studies/articles came up. Do you have any particular articles you could recommend me? Thanks![]()
I'm afraid that not everybody will agree with me, however I'd like to know the opinion of other foreros ...In Italian, /l/ itself is palatalized in a consunant cluster (blancum>bianco, planum>piano, flumen>fiume, etc). It is not the /k/ or the cluster /kl/ that is palatalized.
Of course, but all your examples (except of parlare) are "parole dotte" (or cultismos), not direct contunuations of the corresponding Latin words.
(Parlare comes from *parabolare)
Hi Outsider. I suspect there is something different happening in Italian since /l/ is lost completely after whatever consonant, and pretty much consistently: Chiaro, ghiaccio, piacere, piazza, spiaggia, bianco, fianco, fiore
Edit: Just saw Berndf's comment. Was the /l/ to /i/ palatalization? The liquid consonants changed to a vowel.
I don't agree with this statement.
Blaterare is a comic way to say that someone is complaining about something.
Clausura and plettro doesn't have synonyms (we can't say monaca di clausura, i.e nun belonging to an enclosed order, without using clausura and plettro is the only word to say guitar pick), gloria, splendido, parlare and atletica are the most used words to say glory, gorgeous, to speak, athletics, and slanci is mostly used in sport report.
Other non erudite words are bloccare, blindato, cliente, clima, classe, classifica, classico, cliente and so on.
This statement is not true.
The Neapolitan doesn't maintain these clusters, as well. E.g. chiagnere < plangere (it. piangere), chiù < plus (it più), chiamma < clamat (it. chiama), sciore < flore(m) (it. fiore), ecc .......But it struck me that placida, a word in the song, begins with pl-.
Now I know the song is Neapolitan, not Italian.
Perhaps the other Italian words with such clusters are borrowings from Neapolitan or some other Italic language.
Of course, also to my ears (both).... All Spanish variants of the digraph LL and the pronunciation of the Italian geminate L are completely different sounds to my ear ...
Ciao, Francis.
Non ci avevo fatto caso sinora, ma qualcosa di simile avviene dalle mie parti con "igl". Ad es."grigliata" , nella conversazione alla svelta, ma non dialettale, diviene "grijata". E nel romanesco, se non sbaglio, sento "fijo mio", spaghetti "all'ajo, ojo e peperoncino".
Simbolo "j", scusate, non ho familiarità con l'IPA.
If I'm not mistaken, Francisgranada was talking about something else: the palatalization of the geminate L (LL) in words like "illusione" or even "bello". The phenomenon described by Aefrizzo and Nico83 can be found in most Central-Southern Italian dialects.
No, in the correct Italian pronunciation double L is never palatalized. We pronounce grillo, spillo etc. with the same doubleL sound as in palla, molla.I'm afraid that not everybody will agree with me, however I'd like to know the opinion of other foreros ...
I.e. I've noticed a "slightly" palatal pronounciation even of the double "ll" in (the modern) Italian. This may depend on the concrete region, of course, however I often hear the double "ll" prounounced somewhat patatalized (not exactly as the Spanish "ll", but something between the double "ll" and the double "ʎʎ", e.g. "grillo").