l'excès de densité

Discussion in 'French-English Vocabulary / Vocabulaire Français-Anglais' started by mikewra, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    Hi, I have been reading Pierre Janet's "Les obsessions et la psychasthénie." The forum has been very helpful to me and till now I found all my questions answered. But I am stumped.

    He writes: "Le chiffre d'acidité obtenu et calculé en SO3HO est rapporté à l'excès de densité de l'urine examinée à l'eau, la densité étant ramenée à celle du liquide à 15°. Je note aussi la quantité d'acide phosphorique par litre et le rapport de cette quantité à l'excédent de densité calculée de la même manière."

    My inadequate translation: "The figure of acidity obtained and calculated in SO3HO is brought back to the excess of density of the urine examined in water, the density is reduced to that of the liquid at 15°. I also note the quantity of phosphoric acid per liter and the relationship of this quantity to the excess of density calculated in the same way."

    I am particularly struggling with the phrase: " l'excès de densité ."

    All help is deeply appreciated.

    Mike Adamowicz
     
  2. gardian

    gardian Banned

    Ireland
    English - Ireland
    Hi Mike,


    It is more common to write this ion as SO3OH, perhaps with a minus suffix.

    As far as I can follow this text, the chemist is explaining that his analysis for two acidic ions in the urine solution was reported for a urine solution that had a higher urine content than that which could entirely be dissolved in the available water. Since he could only analyse a unsaturated solution of urine, he therefore had to dilute the solution appropriately (here, to the concentration equivalent to a saturated solution at 15 C) and then analyse.
    Knowing the extent of his pre-analysis dilution, he could then calculate the amounts of acid species (SO3OH and phosphoric acid ion) that were present in the original as-given sample.

    Le chiffre d'acidité obtenu et calculé en SO3HO est rapporté à l'excès de densité de l'urine examinée à l'eau, la densité étant ramenée à celle du liquide à 15°. Je note aussi la quantité d'acide phosphorique par litre et le rapport de cette quantité à l'excédent de densité calculée de la même manière."



    My effort:-

    The acidity value obtained and calculated in (the case of) SO3OH (ion content) is recorded at excess density of the urine examined in water, the density (for analysis) being reduced to that of the liquid at 15 degrees C. I also note the quantity of phosphoric acid (present) per litre and the result for this quantity calculated at excess density (of urine in water) in the same manner (as for SO3OH analysis).

    Please await opinions of French speaking chemists.
     
  3. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    Thank you, Gardian, that is a much better translation than my own.
     
  4. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    Sorry, but the original completely foxes me - is there a typo? How can you examine "urine" in water? Urine is an aqueous solution of urea, salt, and other water-soluble stuff the body no longer needs. Is it "urea" or "uric acid" (mainly non-mammalian urine, I think) or something else. Or is the urine diluted with water?
    Further, since water is incompressible (almost) a things' density in water shouldn't change noticeably with temperature (except around 4°C).
     
  5. Guill Senior Member

    Français - France
    Pour moi, le "examiné à l'eau" ne veut pas dire dissous dans l'eau. Les densités sont des grandeurs numériques sans unité, égales à la masse volumique de l'entité concernée, divisée par celle de l'entité de référence suivant le milieu concerné (air pour les gaz, eau pour les liquides). Ici on précise donc juste que l'on compare l'urine avec l'eau. Mais ce n'est que mon interprétation, et ça reste confus...
     
  6. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    Uncle Bob, I wish it was a typo. The original can be found in the google copy of the book on page 427 (sorry, I can't post the URL evidently because I don't have enough posts to my credit), the second full paragraph. And I have the same in the hard copy of the book. I have no training in chemistry and am so far completely baffled by this section of the book.

    Guill, I will put some thought to your suggestion, thank you.
     
  7. gardian

    gardian Banned

    Ireland
    English - Ireland
    You are right on urea in water.
    I ought have said a higher urea content than that which could be entirely dissolved in water.
    My apologies.

    Water is incompressible at a fixed temperature.
    That is to say that its volume at a fixed temperature varies very little with increasing pressure.
    But, like all materials that remain in the same phase while being heated, it must expand to some appreciable extent.

    http://www.mrbigler.com/misc/Pvap-H2O.PDF

    The additional "room" between the water molecules would then allow a greater solubility of urea.
    Look at the table (scroll down from the top) on this page:-

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080612020358AAJuhu2

    The thing about a lot of scientific papers - and even reports like this one - is that they are seldom clear to those unfamiliar with the practices and modes of formal expression of that particular field.
    In interpreting what is being written, one has to use one's common sense and whatever knowledge that one has on that subject.
    I can't guarantee that my interpretation is all correct, but it is the best that I can do here . . . after some time looking at it !
     
  8. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    Yes, you are right but the difference between 36° (body tempreature) and 15° (measurement temperature) is only 0.5%. However, for urea then it isn't so much to do with the water (see below) as the urea. If the subject of the question is urea!

    It's rather more complicated than that. Urea forms very strong hydrogen bonds with both itself and, dissolved, with the water. There are some very complicated thermodynamic phenomena involved in when it dissolves and urea-urea bonds are swapped for urea-water bonds - the making/breaking of hydrogen bonds is temperature dependent in a nonlinear way. The explanation for urea is summarised here.

    To return to the original question. To avoid problems with the subscripted '3' in SO3OH it is always possible to call it by its name: the " bisulphate ion".
    mikewra can you, perhaps, write out the address of the URL (not as a link)?
     
  9. gardian

    gardian Banned

    Ireland
    English - Ireland
    Okay, Bob.

    Now can we put forward a draft that some hard-working French chemist may amend if he looks in on this forum during his blissful Christmas break ?

    Do not worry too much if something is wrong.
    I find that French contributors are much quicker to add their views if they are correcting a non-French speaker .
     
  10. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    Well, I'd start with:
    "The acidity value obtained and calculated as bisulphate ion content is divided by (taken as a ratio to) the excess density of the urine in water(???), this density being corrected to that of the liquid at 15°. I also note (= write down) the quantity of phosphoric acid per litre and the ratio of this quantity to the excess density calculated in the same manner."
    But I still don't know what's meant by the bit in red.

    PS Sudden thought! It means excess density of the urine examined compared to water?
     
  11. gardian

    gardian Banned

    Ireland
    English - Ireland
    After correcting my error in referring to excess density of urine in water, you then go ahead and re-enter urine in your own translation.

    Maybe I should have first asked you what you thought the text means.

    Because no way can I ever make

    Le chiffre d'acidité obtenu et calculé en SO3HO est rapporté à l'excès de densité de l'urine examinée à l'eau

    into :

    The acidity value obtained and calculated as bisulphate ion content is divided by (taken as a ratio to) the excess density of the urine in water


    because :

    1) I see no divided connotation for rapporté in any dictionary.
    To me it is here (in a lab report context) simply a case of its primary connotation, i.e. quoted, reported, or recorded.

    2) The finished sentence in your draft just makes no sense in English.My effort:-

    The acidity value obtained and calculated, in the case of SO3OH ion content, is quoted at excess solubility in water for the urine examined, the density for ion analysis being reduced to that of the wholly liquid urine solution at 15 degrees C
    .

    So, getting back to the starting query, l'excès de densité is best translated here as at excess solubility.

    If you are taking it upon yourself to translate this old work in the very specialist area of psychiatry, perhaps you yourself have some medical/biochemical background.
    This, together with the context of this short piece of text, ought inform you, Mike, better than anyone else as to what is meant here.
    Looking at likely meaning - and not at the French so much - what is your own opinion, Mike ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2010
  12. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    Thank you all for putting so much time and thought into this.

    I am a psychotherapist and have been translating this book since last June, about 4 hours a day. It has taken an average of about 1 1/4 hours a page. I have only 10 pages left to go.

    But I confess that this section makes little sense to me. I will spend the afternoon going over it again to see what I can make of it.
     
  13. akaAJ Senior Member

    New York
    American English, Yiddish
    This is certainly an antique text, and there are ambiguities for this modern (bio)chemist (who has, however, boiled piss in his day). It is not clear whether SO3HO (without a negative charge) refers to the bisulfate anion or is a misprint for H2SO4 (we can't do subscripts here), or sulfuric acid (see reference to phosphoric acid). Presumably this is not a reference to pH, but titratable acidity (the only way it could be reported as mass(/liter, one assumes) of a compound). It is also not clear if we are referring to a ratio between the density of the urine and the density of water (the specific gravity) or to the difference between the density of the urine and that of water, both corrected to 15 degrees (that alone indicates the age: around WW I the reference temperature was 18 degrees C (say a degree or so above laboratory temperature, easy to maintain with a small heater); today, we tend to use 25 degrees). Incidentally, there is no way that the concentration of urea in the urine could approach its solubility in water (about 8-9 molar). So here is my try:

    The measured acidity, reported as bisulfate (or sulfuric acid) equivalents, is related (compared ??) to the excess density of the urine compared to water (both corrected to 15 degrees C). I also report the quantity of phosphoric acid per liter** and the relationship of this value to the excess density calculated in the same manner.
    ** To me, this can only mean the quantity of phosphate, determined in an unspecified
    way, and reported as equivalent mass (moles ??) of phosphoric acid.

    The density of the urine would be an easy-to-measure quantity any time in the past two hundred years. To my recollection, urine contains precious little sulfate, but a reasonable quantity of phosphate, so that reporting the titratable acidity (say, the amount of sodium hydroxide needed to turn phenolphthalein pink) as sulfuric acid must have been a convention of the time, to avoid the issue of the actual, multiple compounds present in the urine. It is not clear whether the author is attributing the variation in the density of urine to its content in acidic species or is only noting a correlation.

    Question: what is the date of the text???
     
  14. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    I spent the afternoon tracking this down. Hopefully, I have an answer now.

    Janet was using a technique of urinalysis developed by H. Joulie. After much research, I found that this method sought to account for several problems in previous attempts. One such problem, sort of amusing, is that colored reagents were previously required and this was problematic given that urine can have a variety of its own colors.

    The following is my best understanding of the bearing of the phrase "excess of density" in Joulie's technique.

    Now, urine has a higher density than water. Further, the exact density of a given urine will differ from person to person and for the same person given certain changes in health or diet. The density of the urine, during Joulie's analysis, is taken. This can be compared to water. There will be an "excess of density" for the particular urine in comparison to the density of water at any given temperature. That is, there will be more of a density in the urine than water and this amount is calculated by the analysis.

    I, therefore, apologize to the group. I had thought that "l'excès de densité" would turn out to be a phrase like specific density or some other phrase used by chemists. I did not know that it would be a terse reference by Janet to a now evidently obscure method of urinalysis. Thus, there is wisdom in Gardian's words: "The thing about a lot of scientific papers - and even reports like this one - is that they are seldom clear to those unfamiliar with the practices and modes of formal expression of that particular field."

    Anyone wishing more information on this technique can see the Journalde pharmacie et de chimie, VI SÉRIE, TOME VII, ANNÉE 1898, 1re PARTIE. It can be found in google books.

    My grateful appreciation to all.
     
  15. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    Hello,
    For those interested, here is the link to Joulie's paper - it's pp.116-8.
    Two things come out of it with respect to the text in question even though, as a (20th century) research biochemist, I don't understand some of the chemistry: I can't for the life of me think what the reaction product of calcium hydroxide and sugar is, nor what is given by mixing sulphuric acid with sunflower (oil?)!
    1. He (presumably 'he' in those days) writes of "phosphate acide de soude" (sodium hydrogen phosphate) i.e. "biphosphate" so it could well be "bisulphate" also here.
    2. It is, as I suggested (#10), "divided by the excess density". The equation is:
    Acidity x 100/(D - 1000) where D is the urine density and so (D - 1000) is the "excess urine density"
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  16. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    That's great! Thank you, Uncle Bob.
     
  17. akaAJ Senior Member

    New York
    American English, Yiddish
    I was fascinated by this thread, and read the Joulie paper. I also googled ["pH indicator"] and 'tournesol", and turned up that "papier de tournesol" is litmus paper. Hence Joulie standardized his solution of calcium hydroxide against sulfuric acid with litmus paper as the indicator. If "sucre" is, in fact, sucrose, it will not be hydrolyzed by base; perhaps the sugar simply increases the density (to facilitate filtration ???). [1898 certainly, and 1905 probably, are too early to have been aware of Sorensen's introduction of pH, and the studies of indicators and buffers that proliferated at the time.]

    Joulie now titrates the urine without any indicators, relying on the appearance of a faint turbulence indicating the precipitation of a calcium phosphate salt. The question is, which one, CaHPO4 (A) or Ca3(PO4)2 (B) ??? The solubility of A is low, about 3 mg/L, so that it may well precipitate near pH 5, when H2PO4(-) starts to react with the hydroxide. Since human urine (for meat-eaters), already has roughly this value, the hypothesis is unlikely. Alternatively, the solubility of B is lower, about 0.3 mg/L, and, with excess Ca(2+) present from the earlier neutralizations, might precipitate very early in the neutralization of HPO4(2-), say about pH 9 (so, same end-point as phenolphthalein -- freshman chemistry experiment, anyone ??) [or somebody look up the solubility product, not in my handbook, but conceivably in Martell and Calvin, or Sillen.]

    Incidentally, the reference to the JChemEd paper by the late Miles Pickering, who died young, brought me back. He earned his spurs at Stony Brook, then went to Princeton, where he had undergraduates do experiments I would never dare assign.
     
  18. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    Thanks for the link for litmus, which I looked up. Is or, rather, was French litmus different from English litmus? :))) If you look up "litmus" in Wikipedia it says: "Litmus is a water-soluble mixture of different dyes extracted from lichens, especially Roccella tinctoria". And there was silly me thinking it was an extract of beetroot!
     
  19. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    I am quite overwhelmed by the helpfulness and thoroughness of the responses to my post. Once more, I deeply appreciate them.

    Is the following translation fair? The original sentences in question are italicized, the others are the remainder of the paragraph under discussion.

    I leave aside here the very numerous analyses made on hysterics and I give only the results obtained on psychasthéniques. The analysis is done on the first urine of the morning with a solution of saccharate of lime, the titer of which is very frequently verified. The acidity value obtained and calculated in SO3HO content is divided by the excess of density of the urine examined in water, the density is reduced to that of the liquid at 15°. I also note the quantity of phosphoric acid per liter and the relationship of this quantity to the excess of density calculated in the same way. Most of these patients were subjected to the treatment proposed by Mr. Joulie, by the phosphoric acid. I shall later give you more about the treatment of urine analysis modified by this drug. I indicate here only the urine analyses prior to any treatment.


    Mike Adamowicz
     
  20. gardian

    gardian Banned

    Ireland
    English - Ireland
    The acidity value obtained and calculated for SO3OH - content is divided by the excess of density of the urine examined compared to that of water, the density being reduced to that of the liquid at 15°C.
    I also note the quantity of phosphoric acid per liter and the ratio of this quantity to the excess of density calculated in the same way.


    My minor corrections, humbly submitted.

    Boy, was I far out on this one.
    I was almost going to ask a shrink interested in the biochemical side of his métier to look in on this thing, thinking that, if he could judge what was analysis was being done, he could clear up the excès de densité hassle.

    But Bob and akaAJ have done a proper job on it for you.

     
  21. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    My thanks to all. That was unexpectedly fun and enlightening.
     
  22. akaAJ Senior Member

    New York
    American English, Yiddish
    A bit more tweaking, if I may. Your final version still contains errors of style and substance, some of which gardian has cleaned up. Bob showed clearly that a ratio was involved. It would not be "excess of density", but merely "excess density", to define the number obtained by subtracting the density of water from that of the urine, both corrected/normalized/standardized to 15 degrees C. [Aside: it is odd that this temperature is chosen, since it is not obvious how to correct the density of urine obtained at another temperature to 15 C, except by assuming it varies as the water density. Further, while the water density is fairly close to 1.0000 g/mL at 15 C, it reaches that value only at 4 C. 15 C is the old reference temperature for the calorie -- the amount of heat necessary to raise the temperature of 1 g water from 14.5 to 15.5 C.]. There is also a question of how much you want to modernize the language, for readers not familiar with the conventions of the time (e. g., "The acidity, reported as SO3HO," to "The acidity, reported as grams of bisulfate, HSO4(-) per liter"; or even adding "I report here the urine acidity/density index, calculated as follows:")


    "Le chiffre d'acidité obtenu et calculé en SO3HO est rapporté à l'excès de densité de l'urine examinée à l'eau, la densité étant ramenée à celle du liquide à 15°. Je note aussi la quantité d'acide phosphorique par litre et le rapport de cette quantité à l'excédent de densité calculée de la même manière."

    The measured (titratable) acidity value, reported as equivalent bisulfate, HSO4, concentration[, in g/mL], is divided by the excess density of the urine, compared to water [Du - Dw = Du - 1000], both values normalized to 15 C. I report also the [measured] quantity of phosphoric acid per liter, and the ratio of that value to the excess density calculated in the same manner.

    One further point. I believe I translated "trouble" as "turbulence" somewhere above; this was a brainstorm -- of course I meant "turbidity".
     
  23. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    Just to note that, assuming you use a word processor (which isn't limited to the available fonts but will also have mark-up formatting, unlike WR) you should use super- and subscripts for the bisulphate formula ("HSO subscript'4' superscript'-' ".
    I've just noticed, in case you didn't know, it's "bisulfate" AE, "bisulphate" BE though the AE version is increasingly used in BE and I believe some UK journals now insist on it.
     
  24. akaAJ Senior Member

    New York
    American English, Yiddish
    I type straight into this little box, and pick up accented letters from Lexilogos French keyboard by cutting and pasting. I do know about sulfate/sulphate; I was following USE, and also Joulie (acide sulfurique). I do occasionally use "go advanced" :);):p:D
     
  25. Uncle Bob Senior Member

    Hungary
    British English
    I didn't write that for your benefit:) but for mikewra's, in case he isn't familiar with chemical formulae etc. ("HSO4(-)" is only the way to write it here, and I -wrongly? -used the "ph" form of sulphate throughout).
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2010
  26. mikewra New Member

    Rhode Island
    American English
    Thanks, I will make the corrections to my copy. Finished the translation late last night. Going to take some time away from it, then re-proof it, then see if there is anyone who'll publish it. My thanks, truly, for all the input on this passage.
     
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