-lle (prononciation)

Frenchnoob

Member
English Australian
I've noticed sometimes its pronounced as a Y such as Marseille, Vaisselle.

But pronounced as L in cases like "une elle".

fnoob???
 
  • MarionM

    Senior Member
    France
    When there's an "i" before the "ll", it's /j/ : Marseille, abeille.
    Without an "i", it's /l/ : canelle, vaisselle.

    (Of course there _must_ be exceptions. Not many, I think.)
     

    Kyara78

    Senior Member
    French, Belgium
    a +lle is pronouced [al] as balle
    i +lle is pronouced [il] as ville, mille
    u +lle is pronouced [yl] as tulle
    e +lle is pronouced [εl] as échelle
    o +lle is pronouced [ɔl] as corolle

    ai +lle is pronounced [aj] as travaille
    ai +l “ “ travail

    ei +lle is pronounced [εj] as vieille
    ei +l “ “ “ vieil


    Sometimes i+ lle is pronounced [ij] as in vaciller [vasije] bille [bij]

    K
     

    PrimoBabe

    New Member
    USA - English
    There are a few exceptions to this rule: ville, mille, tranquille (pronounced L)

    What about "Bastille"? Does the word follow the general rule, or is it pronounced as ville, mille, tranquille? (I believe that the L's are pronounced in the name of the city Lille.)
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    So is Vanille pronounced as Van-eel? It appears to end softly at the l.
     

    Wordy McWordface

    Senior Member
    English - SSBE Standard British
    Not a native speaker, but I'm pretty sure that 'vanille' is pronounced more like 'van-eey' with /j/ at the end.

    See #4. 'Vanille' is not on the list of exceptions where -ille is pronounced like -eel (e.g. 'ville' and 'mille').
     

    tartopom

    Senior Member
    French
    When I pronounce the end of 'vanille' it sounds a wee bit like the /ç/ in the German 'nicht'. A slight /ç/. Actually it's not a "clear" /j/.
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Yes I've gone through various enunciations and arrived at Vaneeya. The a at the end is softly voiced as something of an aftermath of the elongated y/j sound. I wonder where Persian gets its Vaneel from since it tends to adopt such terms from French. Perhaps its a Persian adaptation to Vaneeya.
     

    Wordy McWordface

    Senior Member
    English - SSBE Standard British
    :confused: Really? To my ears, that would be a really odd pronunciation. The standard pronunciation is clearly [vanij] as mentioned above – there is no [ç] or [l].
    I understand exactly what Tartopom means. In contrast to the loose and "open" articulation of the English words 'bee' and 'wee', French speakers say the final /j/ of 'bille' and 'oui' with more tightness in the jaw. As a result, there is often a soft "cchh" sound produced on release, as the air that's been held back by this constriction is expelled at either side of the tongue. As this expulsion of air is released from the velar zone, it isn't guttural like the 'ch' of 'nicht', but it does have very much the same quality of sound. The only difference is the place of articulation.
     
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    tartopom

    Senior Member
    French
    Yep, WMcW.
    I wouldn't say it's guttural - that's not the German or Scottish /x/. But indeed it's not /j/ like in 'un yack'. As you said some air expelled but I'd say mainly under the tongue.
     

    Terio

    Senior Member
    Français (Québec)
    I was tought that the German ch sound in words like ich /ç / is about the same as / j /, but voiceless. So, if for any reason the / j / sound of vanille was de-voiced by the speaker, it would sound pretty much like / ç /.
     

    Terio

    Senior Member
    Français (Québec)
    Until the XVIIIth / XIXth century, the - ill was pronounced like traditional Spanish ll, Portugese lh or Italian gli. It evolved to / j /, as it does in contemporary Spanish.
     
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