Loro, essi, esse

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  • Paulfromitaly

    MODerator
    Italian
    You mean esse/essi, that is you plural?
    They are hardly used in spoken Italian, and you can find them in very formal written Italian or in poems and books written during the past centuries.
     

    Paulfromitaly

    MODerator
    Italian
    The death of "Loro" (Plural, "you"), not "loro" (they)
    I must be particularly thick today because I don't understand what we are talking about..:D
    I was wrong of course when when I said :

    You mean esse/essi, that is you plural?
    They are hardly used in spoken Italian, and you can find them in very formal written Italian or in poems and books written during the past centuries.
    esse/essi, that is a synonym of loro means They, not You (plural).
     

    Alxmrphi

    Senior Member
    UK English
    We're talking about "Loro" (you) not "they" (refering to post #10)
    When was the last time you adressed a group of people with "Loro"?
    I don't understand how you don't understand, it's probably been one of the most major topics on this forum.

    I know ALL about "those days", I have them every other day, sleep, and see it again tomorrow.

    Take this for instance, they haven't included "you" formal plural?
    Make sense now ickle Pawl? :p
     

    Paulfromitaly

    MODerator
    Italian
    O'rite chuck, I got ya now!!:D

    You were talking about Loro used instead of Voi as an extremely polite way to address people..it's so rarely used that I didn't understand what the hell you were on about!
    Loro instead of Voi is as old-fashioned as Voi instead of Lei, although it's still the right way to address the highest offices of the Church as Archbishops, Bishops and Cardinals.
    My comment about the progressive loss of esse/essi is still valid.
     

    Paulfromitaly

    MODerator
    Italian
    Esse/Essi are used for "they" and not "you"? right?(to clarify, cos I've gone and got confused now, haha).
    Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.
    Although it's not very common in spoken Italian you can use essi for a group of males, esse for a group of females, whereas if there are both males and females we normally just say loro.
     

    Alxmrphi

    Senior Member
    UK English
    You're enjoying confusing me today, aren't you!!! lol.

    Uppercase "L" + oro = You
    Lowercase "l" + oro = they

    So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".

    Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.

    If this is what you meant, keep it this way:p Lots of my books say if it is a lowercase "l" it's "they", and you don't want to go around confusing people now do you Paul? Tormenting their dreams and making them rip their hair out in confusion! lol. Only joking:)
     

    Paulfromitaly

    MODerator
    Italian
    You're enjoying confusing me today, aren't you!!! lol.

    Uppercase "L" + oro = You
    Lowercase "l" + oro = they

    So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".

    Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.

    If this is what you meant, keep it this way:p Lots of my books say if it is a lowercase "l" it's "they", and you don't want to go around confusing people now do you Paul? Tormenting their dreams and making them rip their hair out in confusion! lol. Only joking:)
    Sorry, mate..you're right all along the line.

    Loro = you plural, but really formal
    loro (essi/esse) = they

    I'm going to correct my old post in order to avoid confusion.
     

    Gyurme

    Member
    USA
    United States
    the good news is that they don't even teach essi/esse anymore in the US introductory Italian texts. However, they continue to present Loro (2nd person formal plural.) that's why I was curious about the death of Loro.
    So do I understand correctly that voi or Voi is used instead? And Loro is reserved for heads of state etc.?
    Thanks guys.
     

    Paulfromitaly

    MODerator
    Italian
    the good news is that they don't even teach essi/esse anymore in the US introductory Italian texts. However, they continue to present Loro (2nd person formal plural.)
    That's funny because essi/esse is still much more common than Loro used as 2nd person formal plural..

    So do I understand correctly that voi or Voi is used instead? And Loro is reserved for heads of state etc.?
    Thanks guys.
    Let me try to recap:

    lei is the usual way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
    Voi is the very formal way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
    voi is the usual way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
    Loro is the very formal way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
     

    uinni

    Senior Member
    Italy, Italian
    Hi.
    Paul, I am afraid you got tired out by all these posts :D
    Let me try to recap:

    Lei is the formal way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
    lei is the usual way to address a female (she).
    Voi is the very(?) formal way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular) in South Italy.
    Voi is the formal way to address more than one person (you 2nd plural)
    voi is the usual way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
    Loro is the very formal way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural), which is in decline (but you may hear it in restaurants/hotels where waiters and the like tend to be highly formal).
    loro is the iusual way to address more than one person (they) -which has almost replaced essi/esse)
    Uinni
     

    uinni

    Senior Member
    Italy, Italian
    Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del Voi è molto formale..:D
    Anche qui tra i mangia polenta dell'Est è molto formale ma solo in friulano (e anche lì è in disuso a favore di Jê/Lui :D ).

    Ma non certo in Italiano standard (almeno dalla caduta del fascismo :D )

    Uinni
     

    uinni

    Senior Member
    Italy, Italian
    Qui tra i mangiabistecche è praticamente morto e sepolto, anzi direi estinto!!! :D Si usa praticamente solo nell'italiano commerciale scritto, ma non nella lingua parlata.
    In realtà nì. Nell'italiano commerciale scritto si usa il Voi non come formale per persona singola ma come formale per una pluralità di persone (che compongoo l'azienda). Tralaltro, il "Voi" viene sempre più soppiantato dal "voi" minuscolo.

    Uinni
     

    uinni

    Senior Member
    Italy, Italian
    Doesn't "loro" also mean "their"?
    Yes, and in fact although at the end even purists gave up, its usage instead of essi/e was considered an ERROR (not long ago)!
    Alas our language is worsening more and more...

    Uinni
     

    Akire72

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    In realtà nì. Nell'italiano commerciale scritto si usa il Voi non come formale per persona singola ma come formale per una pluralità di persone (che compongoo l'azienda). :tick: VERO!

    Tralaltro, il "Voi" viene sempre più soppiantato dal "voi" minuscolo.:arrow: Voglia Iddio, con tutte queste maiuscole si perde la via per tornare a casa!!!

    Uinni
    P.s., ma "tra l'altro" si può scrivere tutto attaccato? Non l'avevo mai visto scritto così :)
     

    marialdina27

    Senior Member
    English
    So,"Essi sono sporchi" would be an old fashion way of saying they are dirty. Instead I should say, "loro sono sporchi". Right?
     

    arthurlee

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    So,"Essi sono sporchi" would be an old fashion way of saying they are dirty. Instead I should say, "loro sono sporchi" :tick:. Right?
    Even better: "Sono sporchi". When speaking we usually don't "stress" the person.
    Anyway it's funny because I NEVER used "essi/esse" in my whole life, still if you flip through any Italian grammar book you'll find this pronominal list:
    "Io, tu, egli, noi, voi, essi". ("Ella" and "esse" are EVEN less used, at least here up in Northern Italy) :)
     

    Akire72

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on the standpoint) the new school teacher tend to teach the children the new personal pronouns: lui/lei (instead of egli/ella) and loro (instead of essi/esse).
     

    Duarte

    New Member
    Portuguese
    So is this lui\lei (and loro) instead of egli/ella trend French influence? Because the former is pretty much the same as in Portuguese or Spanish.
     
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