In addition to the death of loro, I've recently been hearing of the death of esse/essi in spoken usage, written only? Any comments? Confirmations? Opinions?
Loro, essi, esse
- Thread starter Bookmom
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You mean esse/essi, that is you plural?
They are hardly used in spoken Italian, and you can find them in very formal written Italian or in poems and books written during the past centuries.
They are hardly used in spoken Italian, and you can find them in very formal written Italian or in poems and books written during the past centuries.
Exactly, thanks Paul.
what do you mean by the death of loro
The death of "Loro" (Plural, "you"), not "loro" (they)
Good catch Alex! Thanks
I must be particularly thick today because I don't understand what we are talking about..
I was wrong of course when when I said :
esse/essi, that is a synonym of loro means They, not You (plural).
We're talking about "Loro" (you) not "they" (refering to post #10)
When was the last time you adressed a group of people with "Loro"?
I don't understand how you don't understand, it's probably been one of the most major topics on this forum.
I know ALL about "those days", I have them every other day, sleep, and see it again tomorrow.
Take this for instance, they haven't included "you" formal plural?
Make sense now ickle Pawl?
When was the last time you adressed a group of people with "Loro"?
I don't understand how you don't understand, it's probably been one of the most major topics on this forum.
I know ALL about "those days", I have them every other day, sleep, and see it again tomorrow.
Take this for instance, they haven't included "you" formal plural?
Make sense now ickle Pawl?
O'rite chuck, I got ya now!!
You were talking about Loro used instead of Voi as an extremely polite way to address people..it's so rarely used that I didn't understand what the hell you were on about!
Loro instead of Voi is as old-fashioned as Voi instead of Lei, although it's still the right way to address the highest offices of the Church as Archbishops, Bishops and Cardinals.
My comment about the progressive loss of esse/essi is still valid.
You were talking about Loro used instead of Voi as an extremely polite way to address people..it's so rarely used that I didn't understand what the hell you were on about!
Loro instead of Voi is as old-fashioned as Voi instead of Lei, although it's still the right way to address the highest offices of the Church as Archbishops, Bishops and Cardinals.
My comment about the progressive loss of esse/essi is still valid.
Esse/Essi are used for "they" and not "you"? right?(to clarify, cos I've gone and got confused now, haha).
Well that's good Cos I've never learnt them, hehe. I suppose I should make myself "aware" of them incase someone does use them.
Cos I've never learnt them, hehe. I suppose I should make myself "aware" of them incase someone does use them.
Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.
Although it's not very common in spoken Italian you can use essi for a group of males, esse for a group of females, whereas if there are both males and females we normally just say loro.
You're enjoying confusing me today, aren't you!!! lol.
Uppercase "L" + oro = You
Lowercase "l" + oro = they
So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".
Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.
If this is what you meant, keep it this way Lots of my books say if it is a lowercase "l" it's "they", and you don't want to go around confusing people now do you Paul? Tormenting their dreams and making them rip their hair out in confusion! lol. Only joking
Uppercase "L" + oro = You
Lowercase "l" + oro = they
So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".
Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.
If this is what you meant, keep it this way
Lots of my books say if it is a lowercase "l" it's "they", and you don't want to go around confusing people now do you Paul? Tormenting their dreams and making them rip their hair out in confusion! lol. Only joking
You're enjoying confusing me today, aren't you!!! lol.
Uppercase "L" + oro = You
Lowercase "l" + oro = they
So if "esse/essi" are synonyms of "they", then why did you say "Loro" (plural you), maybe it's the way I have read grammar lessons, but "loro = they" (unless at the beginning of a sentence) and the other one is for "You, formal, plural".
Yes, Essi/Esse are a "sexwise" synonym of loro meaning They.
If this is what you meant, keep it this way
Sorry, mate..you're right all along the line.
Loro = you plural, but really formal
loro (essi/esse) = they
I'm going to correct my old post in order to avoid confusion.
the good news is that they don't even teach essi/esse anymore in the US introductory Italian texts. However, they continue to present Loro (2nd person formal plural.) that's why I was curious about the death of Loro.
So do I understand correctly that voi or Voi is used instead? And Loro is reserved for heads of state etc.?
Thanks guys.
So do I understand correctly that voi or Voi is used instead? And Loro is reserved for heads of state etc.?
Thanks guys.
That's funny because essi/esse is still much more common than Loro used as 2nd person formal plural..
Let me try to recap:
lei is the usual way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
Voi is the very formal way to address a person, male or female (you 2nd singular)
voi is the usual way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
Loro is the very formal way to address people, males or females (you 2nd plural)
Hi.
Paul, I am afraid you got tired out by all these posts
Uinni
Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del Voi è molto formale..
Yes: il loro cane = their dog.
Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del Voi è molto formale..
Qui tra i mangiabistecche è praticamente morto e sepolto, anzi direi estinto!!!
Si usa praticamente solo nell'italiano commerciale scritto, ma non nella lingua parlata.
Qui tra i mangiapolenta, dare del Voi è molto formale..
Anche qui tra i mangia polenta dell'Est è molto formale ma solo in friulano (e anche lì è in disuso a favore di Jê/Lui
).Ma non certo in Italiano standard (almeno dalla caduta del fascismo
)Uinni
Qui tra i mangiabistecche è praticamente morto e sepolto, anzi direi estinto!!!
In realtà nì. Nell'italiano commerciale scritto si usa il Voi non come formale per persona singola ma come formale per una pluralità di persone (che compongoo l'azienda). Tralaltro, il "Voi" viene sempre più soppiantato dal "voi" minuscolo.
Uinni
Yes, and in fact although at the end even purists gave up, its usage instead of essi/e was considered an ERROR (not long ago)!
Alas our language is worsening more and more...
Uinni
In realtà nì. Nell'italiano commerciale scritto si usa il Voi non come formale per persona singola ma come formale per una pluralità di persone (che compongoo l'azienda).
Tralaltro, il "Voi" viene sempre più soppiantato dal "voi" minuscolo.
Uinni
P.s., ma "tra l'altro" si può scrivere tutto attaccato? Non l'avevo mai visto scritto così
So,"Essi sono sporchi" would be an old fashion way of saying they are dirty. Instead I should say, "loro sono sporchi". Right?
So,"Essi sono sporchi" would be an old fashion way of saying they are dirty. Instead I should say, "loro sono sporchi"
Even better: "Sono sporchi". When speaking we usually don't "stress" the person.
Anyway it's funny because I NEVER used "essi/esse" in my whole life, still if you flip through any Italian grammar book you'll find this pronominal list:
"Io, tu, egli, noi, voi, essi". ("Ella" and "esse" are EVEN less used, at least here up in Northern Italy)
Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on the standpoint) the new school teacher tend to teach the children the new personal pronouns: lui/lei (instead of egli/ella) and loro (instead of essi/esse).
I love this thread. It's so much like who's on first? Why is it that no one answered Duarte's query? Is there, indeed, a trending French influence?
So, il Loro cane = your dog ?
Capital Loro meaning formal you plural.
Signore e Signora Rossi, questo è il Loro cane, non è vero?
Yes, but bear in mind nobody uses such a formal language nowadays as it'd sound kind of ridiculous.