Los alumnos tendrán que hacerlo otra vez

flicg

Senior Member
English, UK
"Los alumnos que han suspendido el examen tendrán que hacerlo otra vez en septiembre." I thought this was in the passive voice, but my online course marked it as in the active voice. Is the first verb in the passive voice and the second active or are they both active - and is the future tense always an active voice?
 
  • Agró

    Senior Member
    Spanish-Navarre
    Both are active voice.

    Passive in Spanish takes the auxiliary verb "ser" (be), just like in English.

    All tenses can be passive. Future too.

    The film will be shown tomorrow.
    La película será emitida mañana.
     

    Sendro Páez

    Senior Member
    Spanish - España
    Please, note that, technically speaking, passive voice does not exist in Spanish —verbs show inflection in person, number, time, aspect and mood, but not in voice. All verbs are to be considered active.

    Passive constructions, however, do exist, and there are two types of them in our language. The kind of message the provided sentence conveys is not rarely worded using a periphrastic passive construction. The alternative "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre" sounds natural to me. This is possible because suspender may bear two different meanings when talking about education. I guess this confusing double game is what made you, flicg, launch this thread.
     

    flicg

    Senior Member
    English, UK
    @Sendro Páez First point noted, thanks.

    Second point: I have seen no reference to two types of passive construction in the explanations I have read. Do you mean your example is not the periphrastic kind? What is the other and could you give an example?

    As to your last point, I can recognise understand and construct a passive sentence in English but do not seem to have the same ability in Spanish although it has been rapidly improving since starting this thread! I understand most of what I read in Spanish but suspect the problem is that my grasp of verb construction is not where I want it to be.
     
    Please, note that, technically speaking, passive voice does not exist in Spanish —verbs show inflection in person, number, time, aspect and mood, but not in voice. All verbs are to be considered active.
    Sendro, this is at odds with everything I've learned and read about the passive voice in Spanish. Could you please explain further what you mean by passive voice not technically existing and why all verbs are to be considered active? I thank you.
    "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre"
    Just to be clear, this is not a passive construction.
    Los alumnos han suspendido el examen (The students have failed the exam)
    This is a variation on the phrase given by the OP. In the passive voice, the object (el examen) becomes the subject and the verb ser + past participle gets deployed just as to be + past participle does in English. Finally, just as with English, we indicate who carries out the action with by or por:
    El examen ha sido suspendido por los alumnos (The exam has been failed by the students)

    Another example: flicg está aprendiendo la voz pasiva (flicg is learning the passive voice in Spanish)
    Now the object (la voz pasiva) becomes the subject to form the passive construction, and the present progressive form of ser gets deployed:
    La voz pasiva está siendo aprendida por flicg (The passive voice is being learned by flicg)
    Passive constructions, however, do exist, and there are two types of them in our language. The kind of message the provided sentence conveys is not rarely worded using a periphrastic passive construction.
    Los alumnos que han suspendido el examen tendrán que hacerlo otra vez en septiembre. (The students that failed the exam will have to do it again in September)
    Here the object of the action is "lo" (el examen) and the verb, "tendrán que hacer" is in future tense. Making "el examen" the subject and deploying ser + past participle, we get
    El examen tendrá que ser hecho por los alumnos que lo han suspendido otra vez en septiembre (The exam will have to be done by the students who failed it again in September)
    Passive constructions, however, do exist, and there are two types of them in our language. T
    I assume Sendro is speaking about the se pasiva in addition to the passive form which I just explained. That's another topic for another day/thread, a discussion of which being the subject of the above deleted posts
     

    elprofe

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain)
    Sendro, this is at odds with everything I've learned and read about the passive voice in Spanish. Could you please explain further what you mean by passive voice not technically existing and why all verbs are to be considered active? I thank you.
    Basically, he means that passive has nothing to do with verbs, but with voice.
    Just to be clear, this is not a passive construction.
    What makes you think that "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen" is not a passive construction?
    This is a variation on the phrase given by the OP. In the passive voice, the object (el examen) becomes the subject and the verb ser + past participle gets deployed just as to be + past participle does in English. Finally, just as with English, we indicate who carries out the action with by or por:
    El examen ha sido suspendido por los alumnos (The exam has been failed by the students) :tick:

    Another example: flicg está aprendiendo la voz pasiva (flicg is learning the passive voice in Spanish)
    Now the object (la voz pasiva) becomes the subject to form the passive construction, and the present progressive form of ser gets deployed:
    La voz pasiva está siendo aprendida por flicg (The passive voice is being learned by flicg) :tick:


    Here the object of the action is "lo" (el examen) and the verb, "tendrán que hacer" is in future tense. Making "el examen" the subject and deploying ser + past participle, we get
    El examen tendrá que ser hecho por los alumnos que lo han suspendido otra vez en septiembre (The exam will have to be done by the students who failed it again in September) :tick:

    I assume Sendro is speaking about the se pasiva in addition to the passive form which I just explained. That's another topic for another day/thread, a discussion of which being the subject of the above deleted posts :tick:
     
    What makes you think that "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen" is not a passive construction?
    A skeletal version (subj verb obj) of the sentence "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre" is "Los alumnos tendrán que repetir el examen en septiembre". Compare the passive "El examen tendrá que ser repetido por los alumnos en septiembre".
    Basically, he means that passive has nothing to do with verbs, but with voice.
    I'm still bewildered. I hope to hear directly from the horse's mouth ;)
     

    elprofe

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain)
    mmm what about:
    · Los profesores han suspendido a los alumnos
    · Los alumnos han sido suspendidos (por los profesores)

    The latter is a passive sentence, right? What do you make of it?

    "que han sido suspendidos" is a subordinate clause, but it's still in passive voice, isn't it?
     
    mmm what about:
    · Los profesores han suspendido a los alumnos
    · Los alumnos han sido suspendidos (por los profesores) :tick:

    The latter is a passive sentence, right? :tick: What do you make of it?

    "que han sido suspendidos" is a subordinate clause, but it's still in passive voice, isn't it?
    The subordinate clause "que han sido suspendidos" is an adjectival clause modifying "los alumnos". In the active-voice sentence that it is a part of, "tendrán que hacer" is the transitive verb.
     

    flicg

    Senior Member
    English, UK
    So far, what I understand is this:

    a. Active: "Los alumnos que han suspendido el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre."
    b. Passive: El examen ha sido suspendido por los alumnos
    c. Passive: El examen tendrá que ser hecho por los alumnos que lo han suspendido...
    d. ?Passive "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo"
    I can only think this is passive because when I try to think of an active alternative I come up with a). But I am suspicious becasue being failed by someone and failing something are different things and yet both seem active.
     
    You are correct on every score :)
    (d) and (a) are just slightly different sentences, both active voice.

    Passive voice version of (d):
    El examen tendrá que ser repetido por los alumnos [que han sido suspendidos en él/que lo han suspendido]
     

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    Lo de "suspender/ser suspendido" es bastante regional e idiomático.

    La idea es que, a un alumno que no obtiene una calificación suficiente en un examen, se le da una oportunidad más en el futuro de ser examinado. El examen se "aplaza" o "suspende".
    Si el alumno agotó todas sus chances de pasar el examen con éxito, el alumno está "reprobado".

    En Argentina al menos, el alumno "es aplazado". No "aplaza" ni "suspende" nada. Lo cual tiene sentido, porque no es un proceso que controle directamente el alumno.

    "Suspender" se aplica más (al menos en mi experiencia) a castigar al alumno por faltas disciplinarias, impidiéndole que vaya al colegio: "Me suspendieron/he sido suspendido 2 días por golpear a un compañero".
    De nuevo, el alumno "es suspendido", no "suspende" nada.

    Por todo lo cual, lo de "el alumno suspende un examen" me parece un uso causativo muy forzado e idiomático, que me hace doler los ojos cada vez que lo encuentro. No sé en dónde se habla así.
     

    elprofe

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain)
    Lo de "suspender/ser suspendido" es bastante regional e idiomático.

    La idea es que, a un alumno que no obtiene una calificación suficiente en un examen, se le da una oportunidad más en el futuro de ser examinado. El examen se "aplaza" o "suspende".
    Si el alumno agotó todas sus chances de pasar el examen con éxito, el alumno está "reprobado".

    En Argentina al menos, el alumno "es aplazado". No "aplaza" ni "suspende" nada. Lo cual tiene sentido, porque no es un proceso que controle directamente el alumno.

    "Suspender" se aplica más (al menos en mi experiencia) a castigar al alumno por faltas disciplinarias, impidiéndole que vaya al colegio: "Me suspendieron/he sido suspendido 2 días por golpear a un compañero".
    De nuevo, el alumno "es suspendido", no "suspende" nada.

    Por todo lo cual, lo de "el alumno suspende un examen" me parece un uso causativo muy forzado e idiomático, que me hace doler los ojos cada vez que lo encuentro. No sé en dónde se habla así.
    En España, suspender se usa como fail en inglés:
    He suspendido el examen, voy a suspender el examen...

    Tanto el alumno como el profesor pueden ser los sujetos de una oración activa con el verbo suspender
    El profe de mates me ha suspendido
    He suspendido matemáticas

    Aplazar
    se usa como posponer, nunca como suspender:
    Ojalá aplacen el examen, necesito unos días más para estudiar.
     
    If you mean me, I think I've got it now thanks.... although, I've been thinking that for a while & then something comes along to overturn [correct] my assumption!
    You just need to see a lot of examples of passive constructions (e.g., use the search term pasiva completa ejemplos). Here are 30 examples for a start:) Warning: Each of these comprises two sentences in two different forms: the pasiva completa o incompleta and the se pasiva or se impersonal. Right now, since you're just trying to get a hang of the pasiva completa, pay attention to the first of the two forms given for each example. You can return to compare these to the se forms later when you take that on. Good luck!
     
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