Lusitania through romance sound changes

killerbee256

Senior Member
American English
This question is similar to an older question I asked. This time I've applied romance sound changes to Lusitania:

Italian: Losdagna
French: Louchdagne
Occitan: Lusdanha
Catalan: Lusdanya
Proto Iberian Romance: Lusdanna
portuguese: Lusdanha
Spanish: Lusdaña

I'm unsure of what u should become in Italian, I used Latin luscus as my model. In other words it remains u, but those examples seem to be learned or semi-learned words.
 
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  • symposium

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    Mmm, in Italian we have both Britannia and Bretagna. Is Britannia a cultism? Or is Bretagna just an italianization of French Bretagne? And we also have both Alemagna and Germania. By the way, as you may know Italian is a language of cultisms, it was made by scholars who cherry picked whatever they thought sounded better from Latin, any Italian dialect or their own fantasy. So I guess that "Lusitania", or possibly "Lusitagna", is still the best Italian option. If you wanted to avoid cultisms, I think it would be more sensible to look for what that word might be in any given Italian dialect.
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    There seem to be no good examples of -sit- in Romance: the participles in -situs are widespread, but already in Latin they syncopated to -stus (positum>postum>posto/puesto etc. — positus - Wiktionary); the numerous Latin abstract nouns in -sitās (Latin Dictionary Headword Search Results) were lost in Romance.

    Aquītānia produces the Old French Guienne and Occitan Guiana (Aquitania - Wiktionary), but it has a long ī that shouldn't have syncopated. Vīsitāre, according to Wiktionary, gave the Old French visder (visito - Wiktionary), but I haven't found this word elsewhere.

    So, for Lūsitānia we have several options:
    i is syncopated
    before voicing → **Lustanja > Old French **Lustaine, modern **Lûtaine, elsewhere **Lustagna/Lustaña/Lustanha…
    after voicing → **Luzdanja > ?​
    i is retained as e or i, with voicing and lenition of t according to the rules of the respective languages, e. g. Old French **Luzienne~Luzenne, Spanish **Lusedaña, Italian **Lusitagna etc.​

    Ibero-Romance almost certainly would have a voiced variant, with or without syncope, i. e. Spanish **Lusdaña~Lusedaña (cp. amusgar, fisgar; rasgar¹; rasgar²).

    P. S. By the way, there were very many tribal names in -tānī (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Pre-Roman_peoples_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula), and I guess traces may have survived in the actual toponymy.
     
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    Zec

    Senior Member
    Croatian
    Aquitania didn't really follow the normal developpement of words in -ania, -anea (and the Old French form looks like a semi-adapted borrowing from Occitan). If we follow the example of words such as OF. araigne, montaigne, we'd get Modern French *Lûta(i)gne if syncope happened before lenition and *Lûda(i)gne if it happened afterwards.
     

    Circunflejo

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    There seem to be no good examples of -sit- in Romance
    Some of them in Spanish:
    • Propósito (from Latin propositum).
    • Latin universitas gave universidad but we have the adjetive universitario.
    • Positivo (from Latin positivus).
    • Visitar (from Latin visitare). The noun is visita.
    • Requisito (from Latin requisitus).
    • Compositor (from Latin compositor).
    • Tránsito (from Latin transitus).

    P. S. By the way, there were very many tribal names in -tānī (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Pre-Roman_peoples_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula), and I guess traces may have survived in the actual toponymy.
    Yes. La Jacetania (La Jacetania - Wikipedia) from the Iacetani would be an example. Lusitano (it's said to come from Latin Lusitanus), both for the Lusitani people and for nowadays' Portuguese people, is a word in use in nowadays Spanish (although portugués (female: portuguesa) and luso (female: lusa) are more used). I'm not sure I understood properly the question asked in this thread but Lusitania is Lusitania in Spanish; just in case that it could be any useful.
     
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    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    This question is similar to an older question I asked. This time I've applied romance sound changes to Lusitania:

    Italian: Losdagna
    French: Louchdagne
    Occitan: Lusdanha
    Catalan: Lusdanya
    Proto Iberian Romance: Lusdanna
    portuguese: Lusdanha
    Spanish: Lusdaña

    I'm unsure of what u should become in Italian, I used Latin luscus as my model. In other words it remains u, but those examples seem to be learned or semi-learned words.
    For Catalan you forgot that:

    • there is palatalization of initial l-, so the first syllable should be Llos-
    • o, instead of u, if you're basing yourself in luscus, as the Catalan word coming from it is llosc
    • there is no -osd- combination in Catalan; a likelier solution would be thinking of -osit- as -ost-, as in Amposta, town in southern Catalonia
    So a most plausible option for Catalan would be Llostanya.
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Some of them in Spanish:
    • Propósito (from Latin propositum).
    • Latin universitas gave universidad but we have the adjetive universitario.
    • Positivo (from Latin positivus).
    • Visitar (from Latin visitare). The noun is visita.
    • Requisito (from Latin requisitus).
    • Compositor (from Latin compositor).
    • Tránsito (from Latin transitus).



    Yes. La Jacetania (La Jacetania - Wikipedia) from the Iacetani would be an example. Lusitano (it's said to come from Latin Lusitanus), both for the Lusitani people and for nowadays' Portuguese people, is a word in use in nowadays Spanish (although portugués (female: portuguesa) and luso (female: lusa) are more used). I'm not sure I understood properly the question asked in this thread but Lusitania is Lusitania in Spanish; just in case that it could be any useful.
    The idea of these threads by killerbee256 is to hypothesize the natural development of certain words in the popular languages of the Early Middle Ages and later. In the case of Romance, there is a stratum of words inherited from Latin and having experienced all the changes that naturally occurred in the spoken language (e. g. the French augustum>u /août/) and very many words reintroduced at various periods from Latin and thus having experienced only some adaptation to the host language and the changes that occurred after this adaptation (e. g. the French Augustus>Ogüst /Auguste/). For Spanish, compare the recently discussed inherited popular numerals siedmo, ochavo and diezmo vs. the reintroduced Latin séptimo, octavo and décimo: killerbee256 is interested in the former. The words you are citing are these later loans, like the Latin loans compósito, propósito with -sit- vs. the inherited Spanish compuesto, propuesto with -st-. Likewise, Lusitano is not a result of a natural development, but a Latin borrowing slightly adapted to the Spanish pronunciation and grammar. Compare in this context the latinate Hispania and the naturally evolved España, or the Latinate Italia and the expected natural *Taglia (cp. the unrestored naturally evolved Āpūlia>Puglia).
    For Catalan you forgot that:

    • there is palatalization of initial l-, so the first syllable should be Llos-
    • o, instead of u, if you're basing yourself in luscus, as the Catalan word coming from it is llosc
    • there is no -osd- combination in Catalan; a likelier solution would be thinking of -osit- as -ost-, as in Amposta, town in southern Catalonia
    So a most plausible option for Catalan would be Llostanya.
    The Latin word is Lūsitānia, so we'd expect ū>u.
     

    Cenzontle

    Senior Member
    English, U.S.
    Spanish:
    lu:ʂitˈɑ:niɑ (ETYMON)
    lu:ʂtˈɑ:niɑ (early syncope between s_t)
    lu:stˈɑ:niɑ (/s/ dental, like /t/)
    lu:stˈɑ:njɑ (early syneresis)
    lustˈɑnjɑ (loss of vowel length)
    lustˈɑɲjɑ (palatalization)
    lustˈɑɲɑ ("yod" absorption)
     

    Circunflejo

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    The idea of these threads by killerbee256 is to hypothesize the natural development of certain words in the popular languages of the Early Middle Ages and later. In the case of Romance, there is a stratum of words inherited from Latin and having experienced all the changes that naturally occurred in the spoken language (e. g. the French augustum>u /août/) and very many words reintroduced at various periods from Latin and thus having experienced only some adaptation to the host language and the changes that occurred after this adaptation (e. g. the French Augustus>Ogüst /Auguste/). For Spanish, compare the recently discussed inherited popular numerals siedmo, ochavo and diezmo vs. the reintroduced Latin séptimo, octavo and décimo: killerbee256 is interested in the former.
    OK, I see. Thanks for your time.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    The Latin word is Lūsitānia, so we'd expect ū>u.
    Yes. I was following the OP's comment on basing it on luscus.

    Anyway, the resulting pronunciation in (Eastern) Catalan would be the same, regardless of whether the spelling was Llustanya or Llostanya. Long and short u were quite variable too in Vulgar Romance, if we are to judge from many etymologies.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (US Northeast)
    There is something weird about *Lusdaña Spanish, that consonant cluster is rare if not inexistent in the first syllable before an accented syllable. It feels like the consonants would have simplified somehow. *Luzaña maybe....

    By the way, why the ch in French? That comes from a /k/ sound
     
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    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Making a possible evolution of Lusitania in Sardinian language there would be two different results, one for the northern Sardinian (Logudorese and Nuorese), and the other for southern Sardinian (Campidanese).

    Logudorese - Campidanese

    Lusidanza - Lusidangia



    Compare with other similar evolutive solutions found in Sardinian

    Latin - Logudorese - Campidanese

    Romània (region of northern Sardinia) - Romanza - Romangia
    vinea (vineyard) - binza - bingia
    agnonem (big lamb) - anzone (lamb) - angioni
    ronea (scabies) - runza - rungia
    lanceus (slender) - lanzu (slim) - langiu
    maneanus (of the morning) - manzanu (morning) - mangianu
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    There is something weird about *Lusdaña Spanish, that consonant cluster is rare if not inexistent in the first syllable before an accented syllable. It feels like the consonants would have simplified somehow. *Luzaña maybe....
    That's true, but (I suspect) only because, as I had written, there were no instances of -sit- or -sid- in Hispanic Vulgar Latin, so there was no source for this potential -sd-. For -s…c->-sg- we have a number of examples, however, see amusgar, fisgar; rasgar¹; rasgar² in #5. Otherwise, there exist the prefixed desdar, desdén, desdicha, desdón, desdoro.
     

    Zec

    Senior Member
    Croatian
    Aquitania didn't really follow the normal developpement of words in -ania, -anea (and the Old French form looks like a semi-adapted borrowing from Occitan). If we follow the example of words such as OF. araigne, montaigne, we'd get Modern French *Lûta(i)gne if syncope happened before lenition and *Lûda(i)gne if it happened afterwards.
    I have to modify my "reconstruction", since s before voiced consonants drops entirely and isn't represented by a circumflex accent in Modern French. So, Lusitania > Luda(i)gne.
     
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