Macedonian: сум-perfect

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by cr00mz, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. cr00mz Senior Member

    I have some trouble with the сум perfect. How do you use it (is it usable?) when you have a object in mind.

    сум дошол; имам дојдено; дојден сум

    сум го видел; го имам видено; and finally виден го сум/ виден сум го. I suspect that the сум-perfect cannot be used like this.

    Help would be appreciated!
  2. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Those are perfectly correct.

    Дојден/дојдена/дојдено/дојдени and виден/видена/видено/видени (not to be confused with виден/видна/видно/видни) are adjectives.

    Bear in mind that in имам дојдено, дојдено is not actually an adjective; it's a special, invariant verbal form.

    You just need to use the other persons: дојден/виден сум/си/е/сме/сте/се.

    Have I maybe not understood your question properly?
  3. cr00mz Senior Member

    Thanks for reply I'm not sure, maybe. Is this word order correct виден го сум/ виден сум го I cannot find anything about this on google. Also what if you need the dative pronouns.

    You have

    сум му го дал / му го имам дадено / what about for сум-perfect (му го сум даден / даден му го сум) I don't know if these are possible, perhaps this сум-perfekt has restriction,. because these last 2 sounds very weird to me.

    Also, if го видел is the same as го имал видено how does the сум-perfect handel non-witnessed things.
  4. cr00mz Senior Member

    Also, for the regular and има-perfects you can say

    ќе сум дошол , ќе имам дојдено. How do you work in ќе in a сум-perfect sentence?
  5. cr00mz Senior Member

    Another question, the phrase

    toj e umren, I use it as "he is dead", but this is not the literal meaning right? Because I looked it up, and dead is mrtov. Is this a sum perfect?

    It follows the rule of sum perfect but the meaning is not about the past.
  6. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    The има-constructions always use the neuter form: го имам/имаш/има/имаме/имате/имаат видено.

    The placement of the short pronoun is fairly strict. In this case only го имам видено works, and never *имам го видено or *имам видено го.

    Both of these are correct.

    If you mean the full dative pronouns (which would be used for emphasis), then you could either say

    • нему сум му го дал or сум му го дал нему;
    • нему му го имам дадено or му го имам дадено нему.

    I'm not very good at explaining these things, so I'll just translate them:

    • го видел ('he [apparently] saw him/it');
    • го имал видено = ('he had [apparently] seen him/it').

    Though the whole non-witnessed thing is not as extreme as having to translate every instance with "apparently".

    You would always place it at the beginning. That being said, whether or not you should use such a construction in various contexts is an entirely different discussion! :)

    Both are adjectives and mean the same thing. There is only a slight nuance because умрен is ultimately a deverbal (from-a-verb) adjective:

    • тој е умрен ('he was dying and is now dead');
    • тој е мртов ('he is dead, lifeless').

    But the difference in meaning is nowhere near as great as it is in my English translations. Think of it like "deceased" and "dead".
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  7. cr00mz Senior Member

    Hello again, sorry for the late reply.

    Thanks for the explanations iobyo.

    Another question, if you say бев јаден that is the same as "I had eaten", yes? Can it also mean "I was eaten" (as in someone or something ate me up, a Lion or Crocodile for example.)
  8. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Јаде → јаден and спие → спиен/спан, and probably a few others, are curious examples in that they don't behave quite like other verbs and their derivatives.

    We have:

    Јаден ли си? ('Have you eaten?' ~ 'have you had anything to eat [today]?');
    Спиен/спан ли си? ('Have you slept?' ~ 'have you had any sleep?');
    Уште не сум јаден ('I haven't eaten yet' ~ 'I haven't had anything to eat yet');
    Уште не сум спиен/спан ('I haven't slept yet' ~ 'I haven't had any sleep');
    Ми дадоа две порции зашто не бев јаден од вчера ('They gave me two servings because I hadn't eaten since yesterday');
    Два дена не бев спиен/спан ('I hadn't slept for two days').

    "Eaten [up]" is изеден from the perfective изеде.

    Be careful not to mix up јаден/јадена/јадено/јадени with јаден/јадна/јадно/јадни (= кутар; о, јаден јас!, 'oh, poor me!').
  9. cr00mz Senior Member

    What about

    Izeden li si go toa? "Have you eaten that (up)?" Is this possible too then?

    Also about this (perhaps a little off topic)

    го видел
    го имал видено

    I read somewhere, but I cannot seem to find it, will look more. But because of the macedonian IMA perfect, you have

    ima videno and
    imal videno

    to distinguish from verified and unverified (Or reported)

    Perhaps I understood it wrong, I will see if I can find it.

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