Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by cr00mz, Jun 25, 2012.
I was wondering what type of numbers these are, dvojka trojka and how are they formed?
These are nouns that reffer to the numbers. Think of 'the number two', 'the number three', etc.
How do you say "the number one" and "the number four" and above?
Единица/единка (1), двојка (2), тројка (3), четворка (4), петка (5), шестка (6), седумка (7), осумка (8), деветка (9), десетка (10), единаесетка (11), дваесетка (20), стотка (100).
This is also how one usually refers to numbered buildings, buses and similar:
— Кој автобус? — Седумката.
EDIT: Sort of related, "ace" is кец.
I suppose those terms are also used for naming playing cards (in BCS they are). Like English "ace" or "deuce", just generalized for all (well, most) numbers.
We have the same thing in Swedish, also used for buses/trams. Was wondering if it existed in Macedonian, because i don't think English has something similar.
Now I know, thanks!
And these terms are also used for grading system at universities and schools.
school: A = 5 petka (the highest) D=2 dvojka (the lowest passing grade) E - edinica (kec slang, the lowest)
university: 10 - desetka (the highest) 6 - šestka (šestica in BCS, the lowest passing grade; 5 petka means you didn't pass an exam)
Can it be used:
1. To show what grade you are in? In Swedish we can say "I go in the two" (as in second grade (regular school/high school) "Jas odam vo dvojkata"
2. Pressing a button on remote/house number?
1. One can say 'be in [the] x grade' or 'to go in [the] x grade': јас сум во второ одделение ("I am in [the] second grade"), јас одам во второ одделение ("I go in [the] second grade"). In very colloquial language, for both examples, во is often left out: јас сум второ одделение, јас одам второ одделение.
2. I don't often hear people using these except for naming the numbers, playing cards, buses and school marks (as Brainiac just reminded us). I would rather say притиснете го копчето „5“ (read: пет; "press the button '5'") or, more likely, петтиот кат, молам ("the fifth floor, please") if I'm asking someone to do it for me. Sports jerseys do come to mind: Крумз е деветката на Челси ("Cr00mz is Chelsea's [number] nine [jersey, player]").
Ummmm.. what class (одделение) or grade (разред, класа) a student is/goes - the ordinal numbers are used: first, second etc.
I meant - grading system, system of rewarding - usage of numerical grades/marks a student gets after an exam/test etc.
Schools use 5-based weighting scale (5 - excellent, 4 - very good, 3 - good, 2 - satisfactory, 1 -unsatisfactory)
Those numbers (student's grades) are called (ј)edinica, dvojka, trojka, četvorka i petka. (оценување, оценкe)
(I'm sorry if my English is clumsy, but now I think you understand what those numbers mean )
Еден, два, три, четири, пет, шест - numbers
Прв, втор, трет, четврт, петти, шести - ordering
Единица, двојка, тројка, четворка, петка, шестка - nouns
Think of them as physically existing numbers or something like: onesome, twosome, threesome, foursome, fivesome, sixsome. Only not necessarily in sexual context. If there are three second grade classes II-1, II-2 and II-3, and your son is in II-1, then you can say that he is "во единицата" (in the "onesome" = 2nd grade class marked with number 1).
Why еден, but единица?
I don't know, it's just the way things are in dialects on our territory, there's е́ден, еде́н and едъ́н, but еди́ница, е́динствен, е́динство, обедину́вање...
I suppose that's because the i was short in (late Proto-Slavic) *edinu and was therefore turned into ь (yor, a so-called semi-vowel), which was later vocalised to a "full" vowel when in strong position (basically, when a vowel is necessary for pronunciation) or simply dropped when in weak position (*edьnъ > eden). In the latter word the i was long and therefore remained i.
In BCMS we also have jedan (a is the universal semi-vowel reflex in our language) with the genitive jednoga (the yor was in weak position here) and jedinica, jedinka, jedinstvo etc. on the other hand.
It is един/единица in Bulgarian, that is why he's asking about our еден/единица "inconsistency". The Macedonian-Bulgarian language "issue".
Okay, but the answer is still viable. Wiktionary gives both forms, ѥдинъ and ѥдьнъ, even for Old Church Slavonic. Besides, the feminine form of Bulgarian един is една. So much for "consistency".
Why do you think that everything has to be connected to the "Macedonian-Bulgarian issue"?
So I get that there was a very old inconsistency already in proto-Slavic. Maybe, since the word "edinu" was very often used, the i was shortened in some cases which later yielded ь. Then the east Slavic languages and Bulgarian changed "edьnъ" to "edinъ" by analogy with these forms that weren't shortened (edinica, edinъstvenъ etc)
The older form is actually *(j)edinъ : *(j)edina : *(j)edino.
The form *(j)edьnъ : *(j)edьna : *(j)edьno arose by analogy of adjectives with the inflectional suffix *-ьnъ.
The same 'inconsistency' can be seen in Russian, for example: один, but единый (and derivatives единственный, объединённый, соединённый). Russian etymological dictionaries class the latter forms as Church Slavonic borrowings, so it shouldn't come as a surprise if the same is true for the South Slavic languages. It's even more likely that Russian was the mediator. Compare languages such as Czech and Slovene which have jednotka and enota, respectively, where BCS, Macedonian and Bulgarian have (ј)единица.
Czech also has the word jednička (number one) and there are words like jediný and jedinečný in both Czech and Slovak, too.
Your English is fine, I understood you about the grades (what you receive, not where you go), I was just wondering because in Swedish we can use both types. You can say;
1. Jag går i sjunde klass = I go in seventh grade (I am in the seventh grade)
2. Jag går i sjuan = I go in 'the seven', directly translated this does not work in English. What I know there is only the first option in English. Also this second version is always used colloquially I don't think i have ever seen it written in books/newspapers.
- Vilken buss? - Sjuan = What bus? - The seven (The number Seven)
— Кој автобус? — Седумката
We can also use this "the number x" for pressing elevator/remote-control buttons
Tryck på femman = Press 'the number five', you want somone to press the number 5 button on the remote-control (switch to channel 5, from whatever channel you were on), same goes for elevator.
These are different languages of course, but I was curious if the 'noun numbers' had more similarities with the ones from Swedish.
Thank cr00mz, that's interesting.
Another example when these nouns are used: multiple birth
twins - двојки (близнаци)
triplets - тројки
quadruplets - четворки
I would say "prebaci na peticu" for a TV channel on a remote, for one.
@Braniac do you mean "pritisni na pet?"
@Duya does prebaci mean press?
"Prebaci na" means 'switch [something] to'. I could say either that or "stisni" 'push', but I'd still use "peticu" rather than "pet".
The bottom line is: we'd use "peticu" if we feel that "5" is just a label; "peti" if it's primarily an ordinal (floor, grade) and "pet" if we sense that it's a quantity. But perceptions may vary depending on speaker and situation and maybe even on the language (though I doubt that South Slavic languages would differ much here).
@cr00mz: That too, not impossible. "Daj (br.) pet" ("Tune (in) to five", "gimme five") or "Peti" (you know it's a channel - 5th channel, so you just say the number). They are the shortest "commands" you say (or ask for) to be done, which I prefer (they are "practical" ) But this is spoken, informal language.
By the way, I have here "Petica" channel, it's not No.5 on the list, so when I say "Peticu", I want that channel.
Ok, thanks you all for the nice help
Slovenian doesn't differ much at all here (except that it uses both petka and petica, which are more or less synonymous).
Separate names with a comma.