Macedonian: I help her

cr00mz

Senior Member
Swedish
Hey

I have a question regarding the verb help. This verb sometimes uses a similar construction to English "I help her" - "Jas i pomagam" but other times it seems to resemble seќava with a "na" construction.

Thanks in advance
 
  • Panceltic

    Senior Member
    Slovenščina
    "I help her" is "Јас ѝ помагам (на неа)". Another construction I can think of is "Јас ѝ доаѓам на помош (на неа)" - "I come to her help".
     

    agcnec

    New Member
    English
    I suspect cr00mz is referring to constructions such as јас ѝ помагам на жената.

    With pronouns, you use the dative case. But because nouns do not inflect for case, you use the preposition на to form a dative construction as in the example above.
     
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    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    @agcnec

    Yes, that's what I'm referring to, one of those instances where you can't do a word for word translation. These examples keep tripping me up, because i don't know precisely how to "think". For the most part i usually think in swedish or english and in my head translate, which often works.

    In the example above should you think in terms of "giving help to someone"?
     

    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    In the example above should you think in terms of "giving help to someone"?[/USER]
    No, you should think about "I help her" and you should remember that you need a preposition. Помагам means I help, not I give help.
    It's very common that in some languages you need prepositions with certain verbs whereas in others you don't.
     

    nimak

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    @cr00mz

    During its development Macedonian lost its old grammatical cases, except Vocative, but it kept the Accusative and Dative for the personal pronouns. The Macedonian personal pronouns have full and short Accusative and Dative forms:

    Accusative (full and short) -----------------. Dative (full and short)
    мене ме................................нас нè......... мене ми...................................нам ни
    тебе те.................................вас ве......... 'тебе ти....................................вам ви
    него го / неа ја / него го........нив ги......... нему му / нејзе ѝ / нему му........ним им

    Also, another important thing, in Macedonian there is clitic doubling (Clitic doubling - Wikipedia)

    Like @agcnec said:
    With pronouns, you use the dative case. But because nouns do not inflect for case, you use the preposition на to form a dative construction as in the example above.

    But, the verb помага can be used in Accusative and Dative manners :p
    помош (pomoš), noun = help, aid, assistance, support
    помага, помогне (pomaga, pomogne), verb = help, aid, assist, support
    напомош (napomoš), adverb = "on help", "to help", "to offer help", "to assist"​
    Used in a Dative manner:
    • Ѝ помагам. = lit. (to)Her(short form) I-help.
    • Ѝ помагам нејзе. = lit. (to)Her(short form) I-help (to)her(full form).
    • Ѝ помагам на жената. = lit. (to)Her(short form) I-help to the-woman.
    • Ѝ помагам на жената финансиски. = lit. (to)Her(short form) I-help to the-woman financially.
    • Ѝ помагам на жената во кујната. :tick: = lit. (to)Her(short form) I-help to the-woman in the-kitchen.
    • Владата му помага на спортот. :cross: (not so common) = lit. The-government (to)him(short form) helps to the-sport.
    Used in an Accusative manner. Used this way помага means more like a "support":
    • Ја помагам. = lit. Her(short form) I-help/support.
    • Ја помагам неа. = lit. Her(short form) I-help/support her(full form).
    • Ја помагам жената. = lit. Her(short form) I-help/support the-woman.
    • Ја помагам жената финансиски. = lit. Her(short form) I-help/support the-woman financially.
    • Ја помагам жената во кујната. :cross: = lit. Her(short form) I-help the-woman in the-kitchen.
    • Владата го помага спортот. :tick: = lit. The-government him(short form) helps/supports the-sport.
     
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    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    @nimak

    Thank you so much for the detailed explanation.

    Is there any difference in the meaning between the accusative and dative versions?
     

    nimak

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    Is there any difference in the meaning between the accusative and dative versions?

    Well, помага used in Dative manner usually means some "direct help" (to help your sibling with homework; to clean the room...). In English usually translated as: to help, to aid, to assist...

    Помага in Accusative manner usually means some "indirect help with something" (to give financial help; to help with offering projects...). In English usually translated as "to support". But the English verb "to support" has different meanings and translations in Macedonian: помага, поддржува, придржува, издржува (издршка noun), навива...
    Samples:
    Шведска ќе го помага туризмот во Охрид. :tick:
    Шведска ќе ја помага македонската автоиндустрија. :tick:

    In most cases the Dative manner can be used instead the Accusative manner. But, you can never use the Accusative manner instead the Dative manner.
    Samples:​
    Шведска ќе му помага на туризмот во Охрид. :tick:
    Шведска ќе ѝ помага на македонската автоиндустрија. :tick:
     
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    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    @nimak

    It seems as if the dative construction has a greater chance of being "correct". Its difficult with these things because I don't really "feel" when it is wrong or not, like I do in my native language. I probably couldn't explain grammar in Swedish, I just know what it's supposed be. Something you acquire after years and years of using it, but practice makes perfect :)

    Fala mnogu Nimak
     

    nimak

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    @cr00mz
    It seems as if the dative construction has a greater chance of being "correct".
    Yes. I think that in different contexts the dative construction is much more used than the accusative one, when we talk about the verb помага.

    Also, when you translate from English to Macedonian you can use the dative construction, it will be easier for you, and in most cases, I think, you will not make a mistake. But, if you translate from Macedonian to English you will meet accusative constructions too, with the verb помага.
     
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