Macedonian: Present Participle

cr00mz

Senior Member
Swedish
I think it is called present participle, "sitting bull" or "burning bush". "He entered the door, carrying a gun" (I think this is present participle)

Is there something similar in Macedonian? I know that sitting bull, for some reason is called "bik koj sedi" (Bull who sits) would be a literal translation i think.

Thanks for your help.
 
  • 123xyz

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    In your question, you are referring to two distinct things. Where you speak of a sitting bull and a burning bush, you are providing examples of adjectival present participles. In the example with the gun, the word "carrying" is in turn an adverbial participle (it is technically present, but there are no different adverbial participles for the different tenses, so when we speak of the adverbial participle, no tense is mentioned). You can easily see this through the fact that "sitting" and "burning" are modifying/describing nouns, whereas "carrying" is describing the entire action (of entering through the door) - either way, both do exist in Macedonian. By the way, "carrying" may be analysed as an adjectival participle modifying "he" (this was how such sentences were explained to me in grammar classes in middle school), but in Macedonian, this analysis wouldn't work at all - only an adverbial participle would be allowed, which would convey more or less the notion of simultaneity of the actions in question (in this case, the simultaneity of entering through a door and carrying a gun).

    Now, to get to the actual participles in Macedonian - the adjectival participle is little used and may be derived only from a small number of verbs, whereas the adverbial participle is in active use. The adjective participle is built with the suffix "-ачки/ечки" (which declines according to gender and number), but it doesn't really convey the same notion the adjective participle in English does. It seems to refer to permanent properties rather than transient ones. Hence, the phrases you have provided as examples, translated using this adjectival participles as "седечки бик" and "горечка грмушка", would make little sense. They would sound awkward either way due to our tendency to avoid this adjectival participle in general, but also because they would seem to imply that the bull is permanently sitting (or has a permanent tendency to sit), or that the bush is eternally on fire. Some examples where the present participle sounds more or less acceptable would be "летечка риба" (flying fish) or "одечки труп" (walking corpse). Either way, as you have noticed, there is a preference for relative clauses, i.e. saying "a bull who is sitting" instead of "a sitting bull". I would advise you to rely on these structures in all cases, as they will always be correct. As for the participle, I would advise you to use it in the fixed phrases you have observed it to be acceptable in already rather than use it productively. By the way, you may want to take note of the fact that the suffixes of this adjective participle sometimes produce adverbs, e.g. "седечки" and "стоечки" are often used as adverbial participles to mean "while sitting" and "while standing" respectively.

    As for the adverbial participle (глаголски прилог), it is formed with the suffix "-ајќи/ејќи". As I mentioned already, it conveys simultaneity and is more or less used just as in English. For example, your sentence with the gun may be translated as "влезе низ вратата носејќи пиштол". However, I would say that even this participle has a broader use in English than in Macedonian. In Macedonian, it doesn't work that well when the two actions between which simultaneity is being established aren't really parallel to each other. For example, "he walked into the store looking tired" wouldn't really be translated as "влезе во продавницата изгледајќи уморно". This would sound (at least to me) awkward, as if his walking and looking are of equal weight. This is not the case - it is the walking that is in fact the focus, and the looking is merely a complementary piece of information. So, be careful with this, though it isn't such a serious issue.

    P.S. The adverbial participle is notable for the fact that it is stressed on the penultimate syllable, which contradicts the rule about Macedonian words being stressed on the antipenultimate syllable. As far as I know, this is due to the fact that adverbial participle suffix previously contained three vowels, where the central one was simplified into "ј", while the stress kept its position.
     

    Christo Tamarin

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    In vernacular Balkano-Slavic (Bulgarian+Macedonian) dialects, as well as in vernacular Greek dialects, there is no present participle. So, "bik koj sedi" (Bull who sits) should stay for "sitting bull". Same as in modern Greek: ταύρος που κάθεται.

    In Old Slavonic, there was a present participle. It has been restored in standard modern Bulgarian: "седящ бик".

    Unlike the ancient tongues, in modern vernacular Slavic and Greek dialects, an adverbial present participle evolved. In Macedonian: седејќи. In English, approximately, ".. while sitting .. ".This is something similar to the French Gerundive.
     

    Dunav

    Member
    Bъlgarski
    -ящ and -ејќи are cognates though. From -ętjĭ and -ętjĭjĭ respectively (the open reflex in Bulgarian is a result of Russian influence). Bulgarian then reborrowed -ејќи as -ейки...

    So now BG has goresht, goryasht, gorejki from a single source :/

     

    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    Sorry for the late reply, but thank you 123xyz for that detailed explanation. I must have confused those two terms, I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to grammar.

    What is the difference then between седечки and седејќи?

    влезе во продавницата и изгледаше уморно, would this be a better sentence then?

    To Christo Tamarin:

    I am not very familiar with french, besides some words, so I do not know how its gerundive works, but 123xyz mentioned above that "while xxx" is not used as much in Macedonian (or as freely) as in English, is there fewer rules for it in Bulgarian?
     

    Christo Tamarin

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I think it is called present participle, "sitting bull" or "burning bush". "He entered the door, carrying a gun" (I think this is present participle)

    Is there something similar in Macedonian? I know that sitting bull, for some reason is called "bik koj sedi" (Bull who sits) would be a literal translation i think.
    The answer to your original question is NO. "Sitting bull" should be "Bull who sits".
    In vernacular Balkano-Slavic (Bulgarian+Macedonian) dialects, as well as in vernacular Greek dialects, there is no present participle. So, "bik koj sedi" (Bull who sits) should stay for "sitting bull". Same as in modern Greek: ταύρος που κάθεται.

    Later, 123xyz mentioned adverbial participle which is something else.

    .. in modern vernacular Slavic and Greek dialects, an adverbial present participle evolved. In Macedonian: седејќи. In English, approximately, ".. while sitting .. ".This is something similar to the French Gerundive.

    To Christo Tamarin:

    I am not very familiar with french, besides some words, so I do not know how its gerundive works, but 123xyz mentioned above that "while xxx" is not used as much in Macedonian (or as freely) as in English, is there fewer rules for it in Bulgarian?

    In sentences, we usually have nouns and verbs.

    The term "participle" is usually interpreted as "adjectival participle", and in this sense, participles are attributed to the noun: sitting bull, седящ бик. There are no adjectival participles for present tense in vernacular Greek and Slavic (Balkanic and Russian) dialects. However, in Bulgarian and Russian, present adjectival participles have been introduced taking them from Old Church Slavonic. This is "седящ бик" which exactly corresponds to "sitting bull".

    Besides adjectival participles, we can observe "adverbial participles". There were no special forms for adverbial participles in ancient tongues. Rather, adverbial participles developed in modern vernacular Greek and Slavic (Balkanic and Russian) dialects.

    Adverbial participles are attributed to the verb. So, we must have a verb first and then the verb can take an adverbial participle.

    E.g.

    Adverbial present partciple: The bull was grazing while sitting. Бикът пасеше седейки. How was the bull grazing? - while sitting. Как пасеше бикът? - седейки.
    Adjectival present partciple: The sitting bull was grazing. Седящият бик пасеше. Which bull was grazing? - the sitting one. Кой бик пасеще? - седящият.
     
    in […] Russian, present adjectival participles have been introduced taking them from Old Church Slavonic. This is "седящ бик" which exactly corresponds to "sitting bull"
    A sidenote. The Russian literary language is not based on any local vernacular dialect but is a result of gradual russification of the Old Church Slavonic core borrowed with the bulk of the Christian literature in the 10th century. I am not aware of any period when the written language in what is now Russia lacked these щ-participles.
     
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