Macedonian: za vs s prefix

cr00mz

Senior Member
Swedish
Hello

I have come across some words that seem to be very similar but they have different prefixes. Is there something else to these words that i am missing?

zatopli vs stopli
završi vs svrši
zamrzni vs smrzni
 
  • iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    За-

    1. (very rare, now archaic) spacial; indicates that the action takes place behind something: зајде. And with a similar but slightly diverted meaning: замине, занесе, завлече.
    2. spacial; emphasizes that the action is completed within an exclusive environment: загради, затвори, затутка, завитка, загрне, затрупа, закопа, затутули.
    3. substitution: замени ('to exchange, to replace with something else'), замести ('to swap places with something else'), заложи ('to pawn').
    4. transition into the state of the root: занеми ('to fall quiet' or literally 'to become mute'), заспие ('fall asleep'), заборчи се ('fall/get into debt').
    5. superficial fulfillment of the action: замие, залаже. And conversely, emphasizing the ingress into the action: зачита се, замисли се, заигра се, застои се, загледа се.
    6. (most common, very productive) emphasizing the start of an action: зачека, закубе, зареди, задиши, забрза, заоди, затрга.


    С(о)- (з- before a voiced consonant)

    1. (primary) associating with something else; gathering together, integration, etc. Usually a derivative of another verb: собере, состави, соедини, сојузи, созме, здружи, зближи, склучи, сврзе, здуши, сложи, сплете, сметка, зговори се, смести. There are even a handful of denominatives: спријатели се, сосвати се.
    2. descent: сметне, симне, слезе, скине, свлече, соблече, спушти.
    3. emphasizing the start of an action: спрета (usually for babies, 'to start to writhe'), списка ('to start to shriek), здаволка се, згори, свика, спрпела се, стрчне се, згргори, збаботи.
    4. instantaneous total completion of the action: срипа ('to jolt/jump up [abruptly]'), спика ('to shove/jam in [in one go]'), сотре ('to wipe out, reduce to nothing [in one blow/swipe/strike]'), снема ('to disappear all of a sudden'), згрози се.
    5. denominatives; transition to the quality of the root: здрви ('to stiffen' < to become like wood), скамени ('to become hard-hearted' < to become stone), спепели ('to burn' ~ 'to reduce to ashes'), сврели, смали, зголеми, соголи, згрби се.
     

    Brainiac

    Senior Member
    Srpski - Kosovo
    I'll try to help.
    To me, zamrzavati is primary used to freeze things, purposely, and smrzavati often refers to living things, creatures, plants etc. put in a process of freezing. The best way to see the difference is when you take inperfect forms of these to verbs.
    zamrzavati se - (freezing process) to be freezing in a cooler, turning into solid or ice
    smrzavati se - (freezing "phenomenon") to be left to freeze, usually by
    external factors.




    zamrznuti

    to freeze
    to change from a liquid to a solid when cold; SYN. freeze out, freeze down.
    Freeze over - potpuno zamrznuti
    To stop moving or become immobilized; SYN. stop dead.
    To stop a process or a habit by imposing a freeze on it; SYN. suspend.
    To prohibit the conversion or use of (assets); SYN. block, immobilize.

    smrznuti
    to freeze -
    To change from a liquid to a solid or semi-solid (the surface) when cold.
    to be freezing, feeling cold, to be very cold, below the freezing point.
    to chill - chilling to the bone (smzavati se)

    duboko zamrzavanje - deep freezing (in a freezer). Don't use smrzavati in this case. Zamrznuti to preserve a quality of a thing by freezing it. Smrznuti - smrzavanje is rather freezing in nature or of nature (plants, trees, animals...), by the harsh weather conditions; the quality of the frozen seems not to be preserved, rather it has been slightly ruined, hit by cold.

    In Serbia, both smznuta and zamrznuta hrana is used, but it's said here: zamrzivač (freezer, cooler), not "smrzivač", and zamrzavati hranu, not smrzavati hranu, so I vote for "zamrznuta hrana".



     
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    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    I guess I didn't read the question properly. Sorry, cr00mz. BTW, my previous post was mostly taken from a grammar book.

    Brainiac's answer is true for Macedonian as well. Though I feel смрзне refers more to the result or effect of freezing, whereas замрзне refers more to the process of freezing. Though I admit I can think of examples where the opposite is true, so maybe I'm not considering them properly.

    Реката смрзна ('the river has frozen over');
    Синоќа смрзнав ('last night I froze', i.e. to catch a cold, etc.);

    Замрзнувач ('freezer', the freezing section of a refrigerator), веднаш штом ќе се вратиш од [кај] месарот, замрзни го месото.
    Длабоко замрзнување ('deep freezing').

    To me смрзната храна doesn't sound right for some reason. It sounds like food which just happens to be frozen. Замрзната храна is the expression I'm familiar with, '[purposefully] frozen food, refrigerated food'.
     
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    Brainiac

    Senior Member
    Srpski - Kosovo
    završi vs svrši

    I'll try to show you the difference I feel between these two verbs (in Serbian), and iobyo, check it out :), I believe it's the same in Macedonian.

    završiti - to finish sth, (to make it compete, or to put finishing touches to sth, to do the last part of sth; to come to an end, to bring sth to an end, to finish off-up remain of lunch.... almost the same as English to finish)

    svršiti - something has been finished itself, ended itself; or someone finishes with something, it's like - put an end to it and never return to it, never repeat it, one big "the end" :). (although završiti could mean exactly the same thing, in everyday conversation. Završiti is used more commonly in oral language, in general.)

    Svršeno je! It's over!
    svršen čin - fait accompli

    NOTE: I wrote "finish itself" because in Serbian svršiti means ... primary ONE thing... I was thinking if I should mention it...hmhm...when a man svrši, he had an eraction, he "finished", in sex. Actually, if one mentions this verb in an everyday conversation (instead of završiti, which is far more common), someone may think you made a nasty joke. Just to tell you... :) :)


     
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    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    I suppose it makes some sense, still a bit confusing.

    Though I feel смрзне refers more to the result or effect of freezing, whereas замрзне refers more to the process of freezing.

    Would the same be for zatopli vs stopli? zatopli being the process of heating up food and stopli the result/effect of heating up food.

    Also would these sentences both work then?

    нозете ми смрзна - the effect of being outside in the snow without shoes.

    нозете ми замрзна - the process of me putting my feet in the freezer
     

    Brainiac

    Senior Member
    Srpski - Kosovo
    нозете ми смрзна - the effect of being outside in the snow without shoes.

    нозете ми замрзна - the process of me putting my feet in the freezer
    :tick: :thumbsup:

    Actually, not process of putting your leg in a freeze, but the process of freezing your leg up, or if having your leg (already) frozen. (But you depicted it well :))



    смрзне
    is often used to describe your physical state, or how you or somebody feels, perception of cold. If a live thing, a creature смрзне, he/she/it feels cold, but it's not literally frozen. (your first example)

    If a (dead) thing смрзне, it has iced up.= frozen ("turn into ice"). In that case, zamrzne and smrzne are synonyms (or the effect is the same).
    Реката смрзна = Реката замрзната

    But:
    птица смрзна =
    poor little bird feels cold, it's shivering outside
    птица
    замрзна = (body of the) bird is frozen, poor little bird is dead (ice-stoned)

    You can't say Ja sam zamrznut (I wrote you this in Serbian, I'm not sure how to say it in Macedonian, Ja sum zamrznata?), Walt Disney is zamznut :D (his body is frozen, he's not alive). It doesn't necessarily mean dead, but not alive, frozen (but if you freeze somebody, he'll probably die, right.)


    For zatopli vs stopli... in Serbian is slightly different, but I'll try:

    zatopli is changing of the temperature of something (by raising it) - the stress is on temperatures raising

    Well, here's the song, I hope you'll feel the meaning

    Tolika mećava ter bješe po svieti
    i studen krvava, ku nie moć izrieti,
    .....
    gorušte sunce zgar da ju stopli i svrući; (to make it less severe, or not severe at all, by warming it)
    za što se tajaše u sinjem oblaku
    ter od zgar ne sjaše, da stopli stvar svaku, (to make every thing warm)
    čiem pride pravi rok od višnje ljubavi,
    da svietli svoj istok svietu se objavi;

    ....

    ...gdi bi mi sunačce ljuveno i milo
    ledeno srdačce i moj duh stoplilo, (it has warmed my icy heart and spirit)
    da leden i mrazan ne budem tužiti,
    sunčanu prijazan čiem budu združiti.




     
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    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    Thanks for the explanation Braniac, still a little bit confusing but i suppose it is something that has to me memorized, or something like that.

    @Iobyo

    those points you wrote up for za and s are those all? or is that just a small list for each of those prefixes?

    Also a question about the point 6 for za and point 3 for s. They seem similar what, makes it začeka and not sčeka (zčeka?), the same for spreta and not zapreta?
     

    Duya

    Senior Member
    Whatever
    There are, generally, no hard rules what each prefix means in our verb morphology; those are more guidelines. They're much like English phrasal verbs: there's not much sense connecting get up, take up, make up, look up etc. So, basically, they have to be learned by heart.
     

    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    @Iobyo

    those points you wrote up for za and s are those all? or is that just a small list for each of those prefixes?

    Yes, those are all of the ones the author identified; there are a few more tidbits, but that's the full, albeit condensed, list.

    These are in no way rules for word-building, just the author's observations.

    Also a question about the point 6 for za and point 3 for s. They seem similar what, makes it začeka and not sčeka (zčeka?), the same for spreta and not zapreta?

    There are indeed the same semantically.

    I wouldn't know exactly why one of the prefixes is preferred over the other in cases like за(6) and со(3). If I had to take a guess, I'd say it comes down to the naturally spontaneous development of a language, though I'm sure there's some kind of underlying pattern which I'm oblivious to.

    Спрета and запрета can be used in the same way: бебето спрета/запрета со нозете. I personally don't perceive any meaningful difference between the two here:

    "The baby kicked out with its feet" (спрета, 'instantaneously began kicking out and then stopped kicking out')
    "The baby began kicking out with its feet" (запрета, 'began kicking out [because of x] and continued the action [until y]').

    So perhaps it's something like срмзне : замрзне.

    I'm digging myself deeper into the ground, so I'll stop at that. :confused:
     

    cr00mz

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    Would the words in the last point of "s" work with za? skameni someone turned in to a stone and zakameni someone began turning in to a stone.?
     
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