main vs. side

  • ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Dutch: hoofd-/ head (gerecht/ dish, course, weg/road ('way')))
    vs. neven- /next to (-effect)/ zij [<zijde]/side (-straat/ street)

    Combinations: hoofdzaak [case, business]/ main point, hoofdcommissaris/chief constable,
    vs. bijzaak/ minor point, bijzit [side-sit]/ maitresse (informal, somewhat derogatory), bijbaan/ side job,
    vs. nevenproduct/ side product, neveneffect. (but not as common as "zij-" it seems to me...)
    vs. bijproduct, but not *bijeffect

    I found out that main in English refers to power (magnus, might, ...)
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    I found out that main in English refers to power (magnus, might, ...)
    But of course in some cases English has chief, as in chef, head again. Maybe principal can be mentioned here too perhaps: the first (prime) to be taken (capere). But it is not that common, I guess: I find the principal theme/ players/... somewhere...

    @Frank78 : do you think there is some rule for the use of "neben" vs. "bei" in German? In Dutch you often have a double : both a compound begining with "neven" and one with "bij"; But I think "bij" is more common...

    The funny thing: neveneffect, NOT bijeffect, bijwerking, NOT nevenwerking (werking = effect, +/-).. I added the prefix bij in #2...
     
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    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    Cymraeg/Welsh

    Prif
    (< Lat. 'primus') gwrs (< Eng. 'course'). A rare example of an adj. coming before the noun, thus causing Treiglad Meddal/Soft Mutation to the noun. 'Main course'/Main dish' (Equiv. of 'plat principal' in Fr.).

    Plât (Eng. 'plate' or maybe Old Fr.) ochr (< Celtic < PIE *okri- 'sharp') 'Side plate'.

    Welsh
    also uses is- ('below') and 'sgil-' ('in the wake of ...') to indicate secondary, side matters. For example, isgynnyrch 'by-product' and sgil-effeithiau 'side-effects'.
     
    In Greek main course is «κύριο πιάτο» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔ ˈpça.tɔ]. Τhe adjective is the neuter form of «κύριος» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔs] --> lord, mr, possessor, epithet of God as an adjective ruling, main, decisive < Classical «κύριος» kū́riŏs --> lord, ruler, possessor as an adjective rulinɡ, decisive, valid, main (PIE *ḱeu̯h₁- to swell, be stronɡ cf Skt. शूर (śūra), Av. sūra-, hero, OIrish caur > Ir. curadh, warrior, hero, W. cawr, ɡiant).
    Also «κύριος δρόμος» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔs ˈðrɔ.mɔs] --> main road («δρόμος» < Classical masc. noun «δρόμος» drómŏs).

    In compounds, main is rendered with the usage of the prefixes «πρωτο-» [prɔ.tɔ-] or «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] as first element.
    -Prefix «πρωτο-» [prɔ.tɔ-] is the oblique of the ordinal «πρώτος» [ˈprɔ.tɔs] --> first, earliest, foremost in mathematics prime < Classical ordinal «πρῶτος» prôtŏs. Eg:
    «Πρωτοπαλλήκαρο» [prɔ.tɔ.paˈli.ka.ɾɔ] (neut.) --> the first officer after the warlord durinɡ the Greek War of Independence (1821-1829), (20th c.) a trusted attendant, henchman < prefix «πρωτο-» + Byz. Gr. neut. «παλληκάρι(ο)ν» pallēkári(o)n --> braveheart, neuter diminutive of Classical 3rd decl. masc. noun «πάλλαξ pắllaks (nom. sinɡ.), «πάλλακος» pắllakŏs (ɡen. sinɡ.) --> younɡ man, youth < Classical fem. noun «παλλακή» păllakḗ.

    «Πρωτομάστορας» [prɔ.tɔˈma.stɔ.ɾas] --> foreman, master builder, master craftsman < prefix «πρωτο-» + Byz. Gr. «μάστορας» mástoras (masc.), earliest form «μαΐστωρ» maḯstōr (3rd declension nom. sinɡ.), «μαΐστορος» maḯstoros (ɡen. sinɡ.) < Koine Greek «μαγίστωρ» măɡístōr or «μάγιστρος» mắɡistrŏs --> official < Lat. maɡister.

    -Prefix «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] comes form the v. «άρχω» [ˈar.xɔ] --> to lead, rule, exercise power, ɡovern < Classical v. «ἄρχω» ắrkʰō --> to be the first, beɡin, rule, from a possible IE root *h₂r-ske/o- to start, rule with possible coɡnate the Arm. արքայ (arkʿay), kinɡ, monarch. Eg:

    «Αρχιγραμματέας» [ar.çi.ɣra.maˈte.as] (masc. & fem.) --> chancellor, chief secretary < prefix «αρχι-» + Classical 3rd declension masc. «γραμματεύς» ɡrămmateú̯s (nom. sinɡ.), «γραμματέως» ɡrămmatéōs (ɡen. sinɡ.) --> writer, secretary < Classical v. «γράφω» ɡrắpʰō

    «Αρχιλοχίας» [ar.çi.lɔˈçi.as] (masc. & fem.) --> master sergeant (OR-8) < prefix «αρχι-» + ΜοGr «λοχίας» [lɔˈxi.as], constructed in 1833 to render the rank of serɡeant/serɡent in the newly established Hellenic Army < Classical masc. «λόχος» lókʰŏs --> ambuscade, a body of men for ambush, armed band, company < Classical deponent v. «λέχομαι» lékʰŏmai̯

    Ι'll continue in a couple of days with a post for the render of side in compounds
     

    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    Oops - We're at different sides of the telescope, @ThomasK !

    Prif gwrs = Main course
    Plât ochr = Side plate

    I probably didn't explain clearly enough. Mea culpa!
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Prefix «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] comes form the v. «άρχω» [ˈar.xɔ] --> to lead, rule, exercise power, ɡovern < Classical v. «ἄρχω» ắrkʰō --> to be the first, beɡin, rule, from a possible IE root *h₂r-ske/o- to start, rule with possible coɡnate the Arm. արքայ (arkʿay), kinɡ, monarch.

    I suddenly thought of something: in Dutch we have this suffix too in two ways...

    - aarts, as in English arch- before N: for indeed, the highest --- or maybe the main:
    the aartsbisschop, the archbishop (often in religious contexts, I think), but also aartsrival, archrival literally, but even aartsschurk, archrogue/ arch scoundrel
    - aarts or until some time ago in my dialect archi(e)- with ADJectives, turning into a superlative:
    aartslui, (extremely lazy), archislecht (the only in standardlanguage), "arch-bad", very bad, maybe archi-lui, very lazy, but certainly (very uncommon now)

    However, in both cases but especially in the first, arch(i) does mean "main", but there is never a side-, a by- around, I think. No one would think of a bishop as a "side-bishop" ;-) of the archbishop. No, arch- simply refers to his (her) supreme status... I think this is plain vs. super or hyper-... But I'll turn that into a separate thread...
     
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    Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    No compound elements with that semantic in Russian.
    "Main" is, essentially, "head" ("glávnyi"; cf. "glavá" - poet./elev. "head", from Ch. Sl.; "golová" - "head").
    "Side" is ~"to the side (of a body)", adj. "pobóchnyi" (from "bók" - a side, normally of a body; cf. "storoná" - a side in general).
     

    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    English prefixes:

    mega-, arch- (/a:ts/), hyper-, super-

    Welsh prefixes:

    arch- /arX-), en-, prif-

    We are going towards, 'main/principal/chief' >>> 'large(r)', now
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    English prefixes:
    mega-, arch- (/a:ts/), hyper-, super-

    Welsh prefixes:
    arch- /arX-), en-, prif-
    It does look as if we mainly use prefixes to renner this distinction, which are of course often grammaticalised words ('hoofd'/ head in Dutch has turned into some kind of prefix; we no longer think of heads...). But do we always?

    We are going towards, 'main/principal/chief' >>> 'large(r)', now
    Could you illustrate that?
     

    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    Cymraeg/Welsh

    ysgol
    'school' > prifysgol 'main/chief/primary (!) school' = 'university'
    athrawes 'female teacher' > prifathrawes = 'headmistress'

    derwydd 'druid' > archdderwydd = 'archdruid'
    angel 'angel' > archangel = 'archangel'
    marchnad 'market' > archfarchnad = 'supermarket' (A 20th century neologism)

    mawr (adj.) 'big' > enfawr 'enormous'
    pyd (n.) 'danger' > enbyd, enbydus 'dangerous'
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    INteresting to note that you consider it a main or chief school. We call it the base/ basis, even the "lower" (lagere) school. But indeed, it is école primaire in French. I had always understood that as the first level, followed by the second/secondary level... But indeed hoofdonderwijzer/ headmaster...

    mawr (adj.) 'big' > enfawr 'enormous'
    pyd (n.) 'danger' > enbyd, enbydus 'dangerous'
    However, I do not think that we can "intensify"/ strengthen an adjective using a prefix. Or no, we can, but then it is not something like main, ore like mega, kei (kiterally pebble)... In Dutch that would be a side track, or does that -en mean "main"in Welsh?
     

    Włoskipolak 72

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Polish;

    head = głowa
    main = główny (masc.) ,główna, główną ( fem.) , główne & główni (plural) , głównie (mainly) ,
    primarily = głównie, przede wszystkim, zasadniczo
    głównego , głównej , głównych , głównymi , głównych , głównego
    (variety by cases)

    main course = danie główne
    main , overriding = nadrzędny , nadrzędna , nadrzędne etc..
    main category = główna, nadrzędna kategoria

    chief = główny, naczelny
    chief executive = przewodniczący zarządu firmy, dyrektor generalny

    major = główny, ważny, znaczny, podstawowy

    supreme = najwyższy (o władzy) authority, największa (np. ofiara) victim , naczelny (np. wódz) chief
    prime = zasadniczy, pierwszy, najważniejszy, najlepszy , świetny
    leading = czołowy, wybitny

    primary = podstawowy , pierwotny, początkowy, elementarny
    primary purpose = podstawowy cel
    primary product = produkt pierwotny
    primary education = elementarna edukacja

    side = strona , część , bok
    side (adjective) = poboczny , z boku
    side-on = boczny
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    This is imrpessive, thanks! Now, some questions if I may:

    - could you comment on the etymology of some non-/glowa/words in series 1?I use Google, but the translations are main, main, main, or primarily Something like head, or ...?
    - For the primarily words I get things like "everyone" and "actually", which I would not associate with "main" spontaneously
    - you can use all of those in compounds, can't you?
    - victim and supreme?
    - primary is a tough one; I think it does not refer to "main" in all cases (like primary/ elementary school) ; some words seem to refer to first rather, no?
    - side: Google translates część as part. Correct? Siide and part are related semantically, but still - are they the same in compounds

    Could you perhaps add some more examples where words are interchangeable?I know I am asking a lot, but feel free!
     

    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    I think you misunderstood me, @ThomasK.

    I put the (!) in brackets to indicate the surprising thing that our word for English 'university' amounts to 'chief/1st school' - 'primary' in this sense and not in the sense of 'école primaire'. (That is quite different, of course: 'ysgol gynradd'. You will see however that école/school/ysgol are of course essentially the 'same' word as indeed are 'prif/primary/ primaire').

    En- (and its brother an-) is essentially a limited prefix 'making something bigger', but is really only in the contexts I mentioned. I would like to think the English borrowed it from us and created en-ormous from the form, *ormous (meaning 'big'). Sadly, I don't think they did ;).
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Oh yes, too quick again (too fast?), I notice that now. How interesting!

    The en- in enormous is more like e(-norm-ous), I am afraid: "out of the norm/average". For a second I also thought of the Italian infix/uffix -one; padre > padrone, master, viola > violone, double bass... I do not see any parallel for this -en in my language, but I wondered: can you associate anything with it etymologically?
     

    Włoskipolak 72

    Senior Member
    Polish
    This is imrpessive, thanks! Now, some questions if I may:

    - could you comment on the etymology of some non-/glowa/words in series 1?I use Google, but the translations are main, main, main, or primarily Something like head, or ...?
    - For the primarily words I get things like "everyone" and "actually", which I would not associate with "main" spontaneously
    - you can use all of those in compounds, can't you?
    - victim and supreme?
    - primary is a tough one; I think it does not refer to "main" in all cases (like primary/ elementary school) ; some words seem to refer to first rather, no?
    - side: Google translates część as part. Correct? Siide and part are related semantically, but still - are they the same in compounds

    Could you perhaps add some more examples where words are interchangeable?I know I am asking a lot, but feel free!

    Nadrzędny = nad (over)+ rząd

    rząd. in English
    Czołowy = czoło = front
    Naczelny = na (on) + czoło
    Koronny = korona = crown
    Sztandarowy = flagship
    Kluczowy = Klucz = key
    Przewodni = guding , leading

    Synonyms;( nadrzędny )
    • Pierwszorzędny
    • Naczelny
    • Czołowy
    • Koronny
    • Sztandarowy
      • Konstytutywny, najważniejszy
      • Wiodący
      • Najważniejszy
      • centralny, najistotniejszy
      • Przewodni
      • Najważniejszy, podstawowy
      • Kardynalny
      • decydujący, rozstrzygający
      • Koronny, najważniejszy
      • Najistotniejszy
      • kierowniczy, zwierzchni, przełożony
      • priorytetowy, główny
      • Strategiczny
      • Kluczowy
      • Główny
      • sztandarowy, fundamentalny.

    • nadrzędny" in English

    • primary = podstawowy , pierwotny, początkowy

      podstawa = base , basis
      pierwotny= original , aboriginal, earthy
      początkowy = initial , original
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Nadrzędny = nad (over)+ rząd
    Czołowy = czoło = front
    Naczelny = na (on) + czoło
    Koronny = korona = crown
    Sztandarowy = flagship
    Kluczowy = Klucz = key
    Przewodni = guiding , leading

    Very interesting metaphors (...) for main:
    - crown (kroongetuigen in NL, key witnesses), key (sleutelbegrippen, key concepts), leading (leidende ambtenaren, the executive officials), front
    - flag/ flagship (I do not see a parallel in Dutch, but flagship store, I believe, in English

    I suddenly thought of our opper- (think of up), but that is rendered by superior in English (super-).
     
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