We have had a thread on "main course", but I would like to know how you render "main" versus "side" in compounds in your language in general.
main vs. side
- Thread starter ThomasK
- Start date
Dutch: hoofd-/ head (gerecht/ dish, course, weg/road ('way')))
vs. neven- /next to (-effect)/ zij [<zijde]/side (-straat/ street)
Combinations: hoofdzaak [case, business]/ main point, hoofdcommissaris/chief constable,
vs. bijzaak/ minor point, bijzit [side-sit]/ maitresse (informal, somewhat derogatory), bijbaan/ side job,
vs. nevenproduct/ side product, neveneffect. (but not as common as "zij-" it seems to me...)
vs. bijproduct, but not *bijeffect
I found out that main in English refers to power (magnus, might, ...)
vs. neven- /next to (-effect)/ zij [<zijde]/side (-straat/ street)
Combinations: hoofdzaak [case, business]/ main point, hoofdcommissaris/chief constable,
vs. bijzaak/ minor point, bijzit [side-sit]/ maitresse (informal, somewhat derogatory), bijbaan/ side job,
vs. nevenproduct/ side product, neveneffect. (but not as common as "zij-" it seems to me...)
vs. bijproduct, but not *bijeffect
I found out that main in English refers to power (magnus, might, ...)
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Same in German "Haupt-"
That depends: "Neben-" (next to) as in "Nebenprodukt" (by-product) or "Bei-" (by) as in "Beilage" ("side dish" in the context of dining)
But of course in some cases English has chief, as in chef, head again. Maybe principal can be mentioned here too perhaps: the first (prime) to be taken (capere). But it is not that common, I guess: I find the principal theme/ players/... somewhere...
@Frank78 : do you think there is some rule for the use of "neben" vs. "bei" in German? In Dutch you often have a double : both a compound begining with "neven" and one with "bij"; But I think "bij" is more common...
The funny thing: neveneffect, NOT bijeffect, bijwerking, NOT nevenwerking (werking = effect, +/-).. I added the prefix bij in #2...
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Cymraeg/Welsh
Prif (< Lat. 'primus') gwrs (< Eng. 'course'). A rare example of an adj. coming before the noun, thus causing Treiglad Meddal/Soft Mutation to the noun. 'Main course'/Main dish' (Equiv. of 'plat principal' in Fr.).
Plât (Eng. 'plate' or maybe Old Fr.) ochr (< Celtic < PIE *okri- 'sharp') 'Side plate'.
Welsh also uses is- ('below') and 'sgil-' ('in the wake of ...') to indicate secondary, side matters. For example, isgynnyrch 'by-product' and sgil-effeithiau 'side-effects'.
Prif (< Lat. 'primus') gwrs (< Eng. 'course'). A rare example of an adj. coming before the noun, thus causing Treiglad Meddal/Soft Mutation to the noun. 'Main course'/Main dish' (Equiv. of 'plat principal' in Fr.).
Plât (Eng. 'plate' or maybe Old Fr.) ochr (< Celtic < PIE *okri- 'sharp') 'Side plate'.
Welsh also uses is- ('below') and 'sgil-' ('in the wake of ...') to indicate secondary, side matters. For example, isgynnyrch 'by-product' and sgil-effeithiau 'side-effects'.
In Greek main course is «κύριο πιάτο» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔ ˈpça.tɔ]. Τhe adjective is the neuter form of «κύριος» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔs] --> lord, mr, possessor, epithet of God as an adjective ruling, main, decisive < Classical «κύριος» kū́riŏs --> lord, ruler, possessor as an adjective rulinɡ, decisive, valid, main (PIE *ḱeu̯h₁- to swell, be stronɡ cf Skt. शूर (śūra), Av. sūra-, hero, OIrish caur > Ir. curadh, warrior, hero, W. cawr, ɡiant).
Also «κύριος δρόμος» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔs ˈðrɔ.mɔs] --> main road («δρόμος» < Classical masc. noun «δρόμος» drómŏs).
In compounds, main is rendered with the usage of the prefixes «πρωτο-» [prɔ.tɔ-] or «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] as first element.
-Prefix «πρωτο-» [prɔ.tɔ-] is the oblique of the ordinal «πρώτος» [ˈprɔ.tɔs] --> first, earliest, foremost in mathematics prime < Classical ordinal «πρῶτος» prôtŏs. Eg:
«Πρωτοπαλλήκαρο» [prɔ.tɔ.paˈli.ka.ɾɔ] (neut.) --> the first officer after the warlord durinɡ the Greek War of Independence (1821-1829), (20th c.) a trusted attendant, henchman < prefix «πρωτο-» + Byz. Gr. neut. «παλληκάρι(ο)ν» pallēkári(o)n --> braveheart, neuter diminutive of Classical 3rd decl. masc. noun «πάλλαξ pắllaks (nom. sinɡ.), «πάλλακος» pắllakŏs (ɡen. sinɡ.) --> younɡ man, youth < Classical fem. noun «παλλακή» păllakḗ.
«Πρωτομάστορας» [prɔ.tɔˈma.stɔ.ɾas] --> foreman, master builder, master craftsman < prefix «πρωτο-» + Byz. Gr. «μάστορας» mástoras (masc.), earliest form «μαΐστωρ» maḯstōr (3rd declension nom. sinɡ.), «μαΐστορος» maḯstoros (ɡen. sinɡ.) < Koine Greek «μαγίστωρ» măɡístōr or «μάγιστρος» mắɡistrŏs --> official < Lat. maɡister.
-Prefix «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] comes form the v. «άρχω» [ˈar.xɔ] --> to lead, rule, exercise power, ɡovern < Classical v. «ἄρχω» ắrkʰō --> to be the first, beɡin, rule, from a possible IE root *h₂r-ske/o- to start, rule with possible coɡnate the Arm. արքայ (arkʿay), kinɡ, monarch. Eg:
«Αρχιγραμματέας» [ar.çi.ɣra.maˈte.as] (masc. & fem.) --> chancellor, chief secretary < prefix «αρχι-» + Classical 3rd declension masc. «γραμματεύς» ɡrămmateú̯s (nom. sinɡ.), «γραμματέως» ɡrămmatéōs (ɡen. sinɡ.) --> writer, secretary < Classical v. «γράφω» ɡrắpʰō
«Αρχιλοχίας» [ar.çi.lɔˈçi.as] (masc. & fem.) --> master sergeant (OR-8) < prefix «αρχι-» + ΜοGr «λοχίας» [lɔˈxi.as], constructed in 1833 to render the rank of serɡeant/serɡent in the newly established Hellenic Army < Classical masc. «λόχος» lókʰŏs --> ambuscade, a body of men for ambush, armed band, company < Classical deponent v. «λέχομαι» lékʰŏmai̯
Ι'll continue in a couple of days with a post for the render of side in compounds
Also «κύριος δρόμος» [ˈci.ɾi.ɔs ˈðrɔ.mɔs] --> main road («δρόμος» < Classical masc. noun «δρόμος» drómŏs).
In compounds, main is rendered with the usage of the prefixes «πρωτο-» [prɔ.tɔ-] or «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] as first element.
-Prefix «πρωτο-» [prɔ.tɔ-] is the oblique of the ordinal «πρώτος» [ˈprɔ.tɔs] --> first, earliest, foremost in mathematics prime < Classical ordinal «πρῶτος» prôtŏs. Eg:
«Πρωτοπαλλήκαρο» [prɔ.tɔ.paˈli.ka.ɾɔ] (neut.) --> the first officer after the warlord durinɡ the Greek War of Independence (1821-1829), (20th c.) a trusted attendant, henchman < prefix «πρωτο-» + Byz. Gr. neut. «παλληκάρι(ο)ν» pallēkári(o)n --> braveheart, neuter diminutive of Classical 3rd decl. masc. noun «πάλλαξ pắllaks (nom. sinɡ.), «πάλλακος» pắllakŏs (ɡen. sinɡ.) --> younɡ man, youth < Classical fem. noun «παλλακή» păllakḗ.
«Πρωτομάστορας» [prɔ.tɔˈma.stɔ.ɾas] --> foreman, master builder, master craftsman < prefix «πρωτο-» + Byz. Gr. «μάστορας» mástoras (masc.), earliest form «μαΐστωρ» maḯstōr (3rd declension nom. sinɡ.), «μαΐστορος» maḯstoros (ɡen. sinɡ.) < Koine Greek «μαγίστωρ» măɡístōr or «μάγιστρος» mắɡistrŏs --> official < Lat. maɡister.
-Prefix «αρχι-» [ar.çi-] comes form the v. «άρχω» [ˈar.xɔ] --> to lead, rule, exercise power, ɡovern < Classical v. «ἄρχω» ắrkʰō --> to be the first, beɡin, rule, from a possible IE root *h₂r-ske/o- to start, rule with possible coɡnate the Arm. արքայ (arkʿay), kinɡ, monarch. Eg:
«Αρχιγραμματέας» [ar.çi.ɣra.maˈte.as] (masc. & fem.) --> chancellor, chief secretary < prefix «αρχι-» + Classical 3rd declension masc. «γραμματεύς» ɡrămmateú̯s (nom. sinɡ.), «γραμματέως» ɡrămmatéōs (ɡen. sinɡ.) --> writer, secretary < Classical v. «γράφω» ɡrắpʰō
«Αρχιλοχίας» [ar.çi.lɔˈçi.as] (masc. & fem.) --> master sergeant (OR-8) < prefix «αρχι-» + ΜοGr «λοχίας» [lɔˈxi.as], constructed in 1833 to render the rank of serɡeant/serɡent in the newly established Hellenic Army < Classical masc. «λόχος» lókʰŏs --> ambuscade, a body of men for ambush, armed band, company < Classical deponent v. «λέχομαι» lékʰŏmai̯
Ι'll continue in a couple of days with a post for the render of side in compounds
Could you comment on how 'sharp' could develop into 'main'. Something like "strong"?
@apmoy70 : excellent information again. I recognize semantic links with chief /kurio/ and /archi/ and first /proto/
Sorry, my mistake! But can you somehow semantically associate "side/ minor/..." with "sharp"? Thin perhaps?
Thought I'd done so:
ochr 'side' < Celtic < PIE *okri- 'sharp.
See Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru )GPC)
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru
ochr 'side' < Celtic < PIE *okri- 'sharp.
See Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru )GPC)
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru
I suddenly thought of something: in Dutch we have this suffix too in two ways...
- aarts, as in English arch- before N: for indeed, the highest --- or maybe the main:
the aartsbisschop, the archbishop (often in religious contexts, I think), but also aartsrival, archrival literally, but even aartsschurk, archrogue/ arch scoundrel
- aarts or until some time ago in my dialect archi(e)- with ADJectives, turning into a superlative:
aartslui, (extremely lazy), archislecht (the only in standardlanguage), "arch-bad", very bad, maybe archi-lui, very lazy, but certainly (very uncommon now)
However, in both cases but especially in the first, arch(i) does mean "main", but there is never a side-, a by- around, I think. No one would think of a bishop as a "side-bishop" ;-) of the archbishop. No, arch- simply refers to his (her) supreme status... I think this is plain vs. super or hyper-... But I'll turn that into a separate thread...
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No compound elements with that semantic in Russian.
"Main" is, essentially, "head" ("glávnyi"; cf. "glavá" - poet./elev. "head", from Ch. Sl.; "golová" - "head").
"Side" is ~"to the side (of a body)", adj. "pobóchnyi" (from "bók" - a side, normally of a body; cf. "storoná" - a side in general).
"Main" is, essentially, "head" ("glávnyi"; cf. "glavá" - poet./elev. "head", from Ch. Sl.; "golová" - "head").
"Side" is ~"to the side (of a body)", adj. "pobóchnyi" (from "bók" - a side, normally of a body; cf. "storoná" - a side in general).
In Greek side in compounds is defined with the usage of the prefix «παρα-» [paˈɾa-] as first element.
-Prefix «παρα-» < Classical preposition «παρά» părắ, eg:
«Παράδρομος» [paˈɾa.ðrɔ.mɔs] (masc.) --> sideway, byway, byroad.
-Prefix «παρα-» < Classical preposition «παρά» părắ, eg:
«Παράδρομος» [paˈɾa.ðrɔ.mɔs] (masc.) --> sideway, byway, byroad.
English prefixes:
mega-, arch- (/a:ts/), hyper-, super-
Welsh prefixes:
arch- /arX-), en-, prif-
We are going towards, 'main/principal/chief' >>> 'large(r)', now
mega-, arch- (/a:ts/), hyper-, super-
Welsh prefixes:
arch- /arX-), en-, prif-
We are going towards, 'main/principal/chief' >>> 'large(r)', now
It does look as if we mainly use prefixes to renner this distinction, which are of course often grammaticalised words ('hoofd'/ head in Dutch has turned into some kind of prefix; we no longer think of heads...). But do we always?
Could you illustrate that?
Cymraeg/Welsh
ysgol 'school' > prifysgol 'main/chief/primary (!) school' = 'university'
athrawes 'female teacher' > prifathrawes = 'headmistress'
derwydd 'druid' > archdderwydd = 'archdruid'
angel 'angel' > archangel = 'archangel'
marchnad 'market' > archfarchnad = 'supermarket' (A 20th century neologism)
mawr (adj.) 'big' > enfawr 'enormous'
pyd (n.) 'danger' > enbyd, enbydus 'dangerous'
ysgol 'school' > prifysgol 'main/chief/primary (!) school' = 'university'
athrawes 'female teacher' > prifathrawes = 'headmistress'
derwydd 'druid' > archdderwydd = 'archdruid'
angel 'angel' > archangel = 'archangel'
marchnad 'market' > archfarchnad = 'supermarket' (A 20th century neologism)
mawr (adj.) 'big' > enfawr 'enormous'
pyd (n.) 'danger' > enbyd, enbydus 'dangerous'
INteresting to note that you consider it a main or chief school. We call it the base/ basis, even the "lower" (lagere) school. But indeed, it is école primaire in French. I had always understood that as the first level, followed by the second/secondary level... But indeed hoofdonderwijzer/ headmaster...
However, I do not think that we can "intensify"/ strengthen an adjective using a prefix. Or no, we can, but then it is not something like main, ore like mega, kei (kiterally pebble)... In Dutch that would be a side track, or does that -en mean "main"in Welsh?
Polish;
head = głowa
main = główny (masc.) ,główna, główną ( fem.) , główne & główni (plural) , głównie (mainly) ,
primarily = głównie, przede wszystkim, zasadniczo
głównego , głównej , głównych , głównymi , głównych , głównego (variety by cases)
main course = danie główne
main , overriding = nadrzędny , nadrzędna , nadrzędne etc..
main category = główna, nadrzędna kategoria
chief = główny, naczelny
chief executive = przewodniczący zarządu firmy, dyrektor generalny
major = główny, ważny, znaczny, podstawowy
supreme = najwyższy (o władzy) authority, największa (np. ofiara) victim , naczelny (np. wódz) chief
prime = zasadniczy, pierwszy, najważniejszy, najlepszy , świetny
leading = czołowy, wybitny
primary = podstawowy , pierwotny, początkowy, elementarny
primary purpose = podstawowy cel
primary product = produkt pierwotny
primary education = elementarna edukacja
side = strona , część , bok
side (adjective) = poboczny , z boku
side-on = boczny
head = głowa
main = główny (masc.) ,główna, główną ( fem.) , główne & główni (plural) , głównie (mainly) ,
primarily = głównie, przede wszystkim, zasadniczo
głównego , głównej , głównych , głównymi , głównych , głównego (variety by cases)
main course = danie główne
main , overriding = nadrzędny , nadrzędna , nadrzędne etc..
main category = główna, nadrzędna kategoria
chief = główny, naczelny
chief executive = przewodniczący zarządu firmy, dyrektor generalny
major = główny, ważny, znaczny, podstawowy
supreme = najwyższy (o władzy) authority, największa (np. ofiara) victim , naczelny (np. wódz) chief
prime = zasadniczy, pierwszy, najważniejszy, najlepszy , świetny
leading = czołowy, wybitny
primary = podstawowy , pierwotny, początkowy, elementarny
primary purpose = podstawowy cel
primary product = produkt pierwotny
primary education = elementarna edukacja
side = strona , część , bok
side (adjective) = poboczny , z boku
side-on = boczny
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This is imrpessive, thanks! Now, some questions if I may:
- could you comment on the etymology of some non-/glowa/words in series 1?I use Google, but the translations are main, main, main, or primarily Something like head, or ...?
- For the primarily words I get things like "everyone" and "actually", which I would not associate with "main" spontaneously
- you can use all of those in compounds, can't you?
- victim and supreme?
- primary is a tough one; I think it does not refer to "main" in all cases (like primary/ elementary school) ; some words seem to refer to first rather, no?
- side: Google translates część as part. Correct? Siide and part are related semantically, but still - are they the same in compounds
Could you perhaps add some more examples where words are interchangeable?I know I am asking a lot, but feel free!
- could you comment on the etymology of some non-/glowa/words in series 1?I use Google, but the translations are main, main, main, or primarily Something like head, or ...?
- For the primarily words I get things like "everyone" and "actually", which I would not associate with "main" spontaneously
- you can use all of those in compounds, can't you?
- victim and supreme?
- primary is a tough one; I think it does not refer to "main" in all cases (like primary/ elementary school) ; some words seem to refer to first rather, no?
- side: Google translates część as part. Correct? Siide and part are related semantically, but still - are they the same in compounds
Could you perhaps add some more examples where words are interchangeable?I know I am asking a lot, but feel free!
I think you misunderstood me, @ThomasK.
I put the (!) in brackets to indicate the surprising thing that our word for English 'university' amounts to 'chief/1st school' - 'primary' in this sense and not in the sense of 'école primaire'. (That is quite different, of course: 'ysgol gynradd'. You will see however that école/school/ysgol are of course essentially the 'same' word as indeed are 'prif/primary/ primaire').
En- (and its brother an-) is essentially a limited prefix 'making something bigger', but is really only in the contexts I mentioned. I would like to think the English borrowed it from us and created en-ormous from the form, *ormous (meaning 'big'). Sadly, I don't think they did
.
I put the (!) in brackets to indicate the surprising thing that our word for English 'university' amounts to 'chief/1st school' - 'primary' in this sense and not in the sense of 'école primaire'. (That is quite different, of course: 'ysgol gynradd'. You will see however that école/school/ysgol are of course essentially the 'same' word as indeed are 'prif/primary/ primaire').
En- (and its brother an-) is essentially a limited prefix 'making something bigger', but is really only in the contexts I mentioned. I would like to think the English borrowed it from us and created en-ormous from the form, *ormous (meaning 'big'). Sadly, I don't think they did
.
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Oh yes, too quick again (too fast?), I notice that now. How interesting!
The en- in enormous is more like e(-norm-ous), I am afraid: "out of the norm/average". For a second I also thought of the Italian infix/uffix -one; padre > padrone, master, viola > violone, double bass... I do not see any parallel for this -en in my language, but I wondered: can you associate anything with it etymologically?
The en- in enormous is more like e(-norm-ous), I am afraid: "out of the norm/average". For a second I also thought of the Italian infix/uffix -one; padre > padrone, master, viola > violone, double bass... I do not see any parallel for this -en in my language, but I wondered: can you associate anything with it etymologically?
Nadrzędny = nad (over)+ rząd
rząd. in English
Czołowy = czoło = front
Naczelny = na (on) + czoło
Koronny = korona = crown
Sztandarowy = flagship
Kluczowy = Klucz = key
Przewodni = guding , leading
Synonyms;( nadrzędny )
- Pierwszorzędny
- Naczelny
- Czołowy
- Koronny
- Sztandarowy
- Konstytutywny, najważniejszy
- Wiodący
- Najważniejszy
- centralny, najistotniejszy
- Przewodni
- Najważniejszy, podstawowy
- Kardynalny
- decydujący, rozstrzygający
- Koronny, najważniejszy
- Najistotniejszy
- kierowniczy, zwierzchni, przełożony
- priorytetowy, główny
- Strategiczny
- Kluczowy
- Główny
- sztandarowy, fundamentalny.
nadrzędny" in English
- primary = podstawowy , pierwotny, początkowy
podstawa = base , basis
pierwotny= original , aboriginal, earthy
początkowy = initial , original
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Nadrzędny = nad (over)+ rząd
Czołowy = czoło = front
Naczelny = na (on) + czoło
Koronny = korona = crown
Sztandarowy = flagship
Kluczowy = Klucz = key
Przewodni = guiding , leading
Very interesting metaphors (...) for main:
- crown (kroongetuigen in NL, key witnesses), key (sleutelbegrippen, key concepts), leading (leidende ambtenaren, the executive officials), front
- flag/ flagship (I do not see a parallel in Dutch, but flagship store, I believe, in English
I suddenly thought of our opper- (think of up), but that is rendered by superior in English (super-).
Czołowy = czoło = front
Naczelny = na (on) + czoło
Koronny = korona = crown
Sztandarowy = flagship
Kluczowy = Klucz = key
Przewodni = guiding , leading
Very interesting metaphors (...) for main:
- crown (kroongetuigen in NL, key witnesses), key (sleutelbegrippen, key concepts), leading (leidende ambtenaren, the executive officials), front
- flag/ flagship (I do not see a parallel in Dutch, but flagship store, I believe, in English
I suddenly thought of our opper- (think of up), but that is rendered by superior in English (super-).