manco/neanche a farlo apposta

  • Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    "As if on purpuse" should be the closest equivalent.
    Or maybe "that's just my bad luck" in some situations.

    Jana

    P.S. Nel forum usiamo le maiuscole all'inizio di ogni frase. ;)
     

    berietto

    New Member
    Italian, Italy
    Ciao Jana, grazie.

    Anche tradotta in inglese è una frase sarcastica, come in italiano?

    Ciao

    Angelo
     

    moodywop

    Banned
    Italian - Italy
    Jana has provided two great translations. I wonder if it could also be rendered this way in the sarcastic sense mentioned by berietto:

    E manco a farlo apposta ti sei trovato a passare di lì proprio in quel momento!

    Oh and you just happened to be passing by at that very moment, did you?

    In this case it's a bit like guarda caso.

    It can also mean something like by sheer coincidence, by some strange coincidence, as luck would have it.

    It's one of those phrases that can have a variety of meanings depending on context.

    TrentinaNE said:
    Per tornare all'italiano, mi piacerebbe sentire altri esempi dell'uso di manco a farlo apposta. Grazie.

    Elisabetta

    Proprio ieri Elisa mi ha detto: "Elaine sarebbe un'ottima moderatrice". Manco a farlo apposta, pochi minuti dopo mi sono collegato a WR e ho visto "mod" sotto il suo nome

    I have to go back to work but if you google "manco a farlo apposta" you will find lots of examples in different contexts
     

    Tellure

    Senior Member
    Italian
    - VECCHIO THREAD -

    Buon pomeriggio a tutti!

    Vorrei il vostro cortese aiuto per tradurre l'espressione nella seguente frase che una persona dice ad un suo amico:
    "Sto ascoltando una canzone che, nemmeno a farlo apposta, si intitola..." laddove il titolo è riferito a qualcosa di molto particolare che le due persone in questione hanno in comune.

    Ora, le proposte dei precedenti post non mi sembra si adattino al mio contesto e quindi, considerando anche la traduzione che alcuni dizionari danno dell'espressione, non so proprio che pesci prendere...
    Il mio tentativo si limita pertanto a "I am listening TO a song whose title is, as if on purpose,..." Ma per me potrebbero benissimo essere valide le altre traduzioni... No idea!
    apposta
    neanche a farlo ~, … as if on purpose, …
    Fonte: oxfordparavia.it

    nemmeno a farlo apposta without meaning to, as luck would have it
    Fonte: dizionari.hoepli.it

    Vi ringrazio in anticipo, :)
    R.
     
    Last edited:

    giovannino

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Ciao Tellure:), non credo che "as if on purpose" vada bene nella tua frase. Forse si potrebbe dire "by an amazing coincidence" ma vediamo che ne pensano i madrelingua.
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    Hi there,
    I want to translate the following sentence:
    "Per la cena di sabato prossimo, Andrea ha scelto il miglior ristorante di pesce della città, e neanche a farlo apposta, la sua ex-ragazza vi lavora come cameriera".

    Here's my try:
    "Andrea has chosen the best fish restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and not even on purpose, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress".

    I cannot find a proper translation for "e neanche a farlo apposta"; I am pretty sure my proposal is likely to sound weird or completely meaningless to native speakers.
    Can someone help me?

    Thank you in advance!
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    No, not at all, he didn't know that she worked there.
    It's a pure coincidence. The sentence is not meant to be ironical.
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    Hai fatto una ricerca?

    manco a farlo apposta

    Actually I just tried with "neanche a farlo apposta", but no results were given for this entry.
    According to the thread you posted, my sentence might be translated with "as if on purpose" or "by an amazing coincidence", but they actually still sound somewhat awkward to me.

    1) "Andrea has chosen the best fish restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as if on purpose, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress"
    2) "Andrea has chosen the best fish restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and by an amazing coincidence, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress"
    3) (johngiovanni's suggestion) "Andrea has chosen the best fish restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and by sheer coincidence, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress"

    Sentence 2 does somehow convey surprise and positive feelings to me. But this is not definitely the case. Or am I wrong?
    What about sentence 1) and 3)?
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    Do you refer to the OT (Italian) or translation #2?
    OT (Italian). What I mean is that I think translation #2 doesn't match the original "nuance" of the Italian original version. There is nothing "amazing", "exciting" or "thrilling" in the latter. No such positive feelings.
     

    dona83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    .... and bad luck had it that his ex-girlfriend worked there as a waitress.
    .... and unluckily it happened that his his ex-girlfriend worked there as a waitress.

    what do you think?
     
    OT (Italian). What I mean is that I think translation #2 doesn't match the original "nuance" of the Italian original version. There is nothing "amazing", "exciting" or "thrilling" in the latter. No such positive feelings.
    Your problem is that the Italian sentence, as you've written it, conveys exactly the meaning Johngiovanni has suggested. (irony)
    You know the meaning is different because you wrote it, but the reader doesn't know that.
     

    UnaVidaReal

    Senior Member
    English - USA
    Oxford gives "as ill luck would have it" for "neanche a farlo apposta." This translation seems consistent with the context of the original sentence:
    • He chose the restaurant because it has great seafood.
    • He didn't know that his ex-girlfriend works there.
    • Therefore, it was "ill luck" that he chose a restaurant where he may have to confront his ex-girlfriend.
    This interpretation assumes that he doesn't want to see or interact with his ex-girlfriend, which is a reasonable assumption. My full translation:
    • Andrea chose the best fish/seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as ill luck would have it, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.
     
    Given the meaning which you have now explained - that he doesn't want to see or interact with his ex-girlfriend - the "and, as ill luck would have it,.." seems a good translation.
    As an alternative: "...and, by an unfortunate coincidence,...".
     
    Last edited:

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    Ok. Thank you everybody foy your help!
    At this point, what is the difference between the following sentences?

    Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as if on purpose, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.

    Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and by sheer coincidence, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.

    Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as ill luck would have it, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.
     

    UnaVidaReal

    Senior Member
    English - USA
    Ok. Thank you everybody foy your help!
    At this point, what is the difference between the following sentences?

    Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as if on purpose, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.

    Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and by sheer coincidence, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.

    Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as ill luck would have it, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.

    The first one doesn't make sense (as sound shift pointed out). The second one focuses on the coincidence itself without indicating anything good or bad; it sounds strange because the use of "sheer" is emphatic, but there really is nothing amazing about the fact that he chose a restaurant where his ex-girlfriend works. The third one conveys that it is an unpleasant coincidence: he chose (unintentionally) the restaurant where his ex-girlfriend works, and this is "bad" (annoying, or disappointing, or concerning, etc.) because he doesn't want to talk to his ex-girlfriend.
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    Ok, now it is much clearer to me.
    If I wanted to focus on the pure coincidence itself without indicating any additional related "feeling", would "by coincidence" also be a good translation?

    "Andrea chose the best seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and by coincidence, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress."

    Just one last question: could you provide a couple of examples where "not even on purpose" and "as if on purpose" are the most suitable choices?
     

    UnaVidaReal

    Senior Member
    English - USA
    I think that "by coincidence" would be acceptable. I would say it this way:
    • ...for next Saturday's dinner, and as it turns out, his ex-girlfriend works there...
    "Not even on purpose" and "as if on purpose" are not common phrases, in my experience. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to express, but I think you need to look for different translations. If you provide some Italian sentences that convey your intended meaning, I can suggest a translation.
     

    metazoan

    Senior Member
    US English
    Just one last question: could you provide a couple of examples where "not even on purpose" and "as if on purpose" are the most suitable choices?
    as if on purpose:
    did something that seemed purposeful, with no real purpose or with another purpose
    "As if on purpose, the sparrow flew in through the window just as we were opening a bag of birdseed. Then we saw the hawk that had been chasing it."

    not even on purpose:
    describing something accidental, adding even for emphasis
    "It sounded funny when I tried to pronounce Sig. Pines' name, but that was not even on purpose."
     
    Last edited:

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    Thank you very much!!!!
    You all have been extremely helpful, your examples are really clear. Thank you.
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    And just his luck is another similar form as in "...and just his luck, his ex works there as a waitress."

    Same nuance of meaning as "ill luck would have it"?
    Does it also convey the same way that the coincidence is unpleasant and annoying?
     

    scu

    Member
    Italian
    But is it somehow ironic?
    "just his luck" seems almost to suggest that the subject was instead lucky, not the contrary...
     

    Odysseus54

    Mod huc mod illuc
    Italian - Marche
    Just to confirm that "Just his/ my luck" is often negative, but sometimes it isn't. It's not possible to generalise without a context.

    Yeah, maybe, if you say so. But here we are going the other way round - we want to figure out whether "just his luck" can be negative, given the context we are working with.

    Personally, I think it's a pretty good solution to the OP's question. The best, actually. Ron nailed it.
     

    Nooj

    Senior Member
    English - Aus-NZ
    Una persona dà dei consigli di viaggio:
    rimarrai sicuramente affascinato.. ma non concentrarti sul mare, che è stupendo, ma fai un giro nei paese interni dove ancora si respira aria " antica"...

    neanche farlo a posta io non sono un grande patito di spiagge, le apprezzo ma non ne vado matto, infatti io intendevo proprio (come faccio in genere quando viaggio in giro per l'Italia e anche all'estero) cimentarmi con la gente e la cultura locale, perdermi tra i paesini.

    Io credo che 'neanche farlo a posta' potesse essere tradutto da 'as it so happens, coincidentally' in inglese, certo? Ma cerco anche dei sinonomi di questa frase in italiano, ovvero, quali sono le altre manere di dir 'neanche farlo a posta' que vi viene in mente?


    Grazie!

    (il mio post è stato cancellato nel foro principale, ma voglio ripostarlo qua per cercare delle traduzioni eventuali in italiano della frase 'neanche farlo a posta', ossia, cerco dei sinonimi della frase).
     

    Nooj

    Senior Member
    English - Aus-NZ
    Va bene, lo farò subito. Intanto, mi puoi confermare la mia traduzzione (in inglese)? Da madrelingua inglese, credo di averne capito il senso, ma non ne sono sicuro...ci sono forse sfumatture etc.
     

    Odysseus54

    Mod huc mod illuc
    Italian - Marche
    Va bene, lo farò subito. Intanto, mi puoi confermare la mia traduzzione (in inglese)? Da madrelingua inglese, credo di averne capito il senso, ma non ne sono sicuro...ci sono forse sfumatture etc.

    I think we are going about this the wrong way.

    "Manco a farlo apposta/neanche a farlo a posta" is not a very uncommon expression, but not very common either, and it does not have one fixed meaning only. Being, manco a farlo apposta (what a surprise!), highly contextual, I think we are a lot better off looking at a number of examples where this expression is used, understanding the exact meaning and then figuring out how to convey the same meaning in English. Let's try :

    1) È uno scandalo, purtroppo, destinato a non allargarsi.
    Quello che ha visto protagonista, manco a farlo apposta, la Calabria. (blog 'Lo statale jonico')
    : Here it means 'no wonder, unsurprisingly'. (Calabria is said to be rife with corruption)

    2) Ed è ancora singolare che simili proposte siano giunte, manco a farlo apposta, dal gruppo Verde/Alleanza libera europea. (europarl) = Here it means 'what a coincidence! = and it's no coincidence at all' (Here it sounds like the writer has some beef with the Greens)

    3) Avevo appena finito di lavare la macchina e, manco a farlo apposta, si e' messo a piovere. : "... and, as if on cue,..." (It happened just at the wrong time, as if on purpose to antagonize me)

    4) Ero al ristorante con Giuseppina per il nostro primo appuntamento e, manco a farlo apposta, arriva il suo ex con un'altra ragazza. : "..as if staged.."

    Basically, the main idea in this expression is that something (often just slightly) negative happened just at the right time, or in the right circumstances, as to annoyingly affect those involved.

    It often does not really add much to the sentence, look at these two examples :

    Mi ha portato un dolce, e sono in dieta.

    vs

    5) Mi ha portato un dolce, manco a farlo apposta sono in dieta.

    Regarding your 'as it happens', my feeling is that it could work for (5), a lot less well for the other examples.

    I hope I haven't added too much confusion to an otherwise simple matter 🙂
     

    MintSyrop

    Member
    Italian
    Basically, the main idea in this expression is that something (often just slightly) negative happened just at the right time, or in the right circumstances, as to annoyingly affect those involved.
    Ciao, non sono d'accordo sul fatto che l'evento debba essere negativo. L'espressione può tranquillamente essere usata per esprimere eventi positivi che avvengono per caso nel momento più azzeccato, esempio:

    "Stamattina la macchina non voleva proprio saperne di partire, ma manco a farlo apposta passava di lì Gino, quel mio amico che fa il meccanico, e in quattro e quattr'otto me l'ha rimessa in moto."
     

    Odysseus54

    Mod huc mod illuc
    Italian - Marche
    Ciao, non sono d'accordo sul fatto che l'evento debba essere negativo. L'espressione può tranquillamente essere usata per esprimere eventi positivi che avvengono per caso nel momento più azzeccato, esempio:

    "Stamattina la macchina non voleva proprio saperne di partire, ma manco a farlo apposta passava di lì Gino, quel mio amico che fa il meccanico, e in quattro e quattr'otto me l'ha rimessa in moto."

    Prendo atto. Il Treccani pero' conferma quello che mi dice la mia 'pancia' marchigiana:

    appòsta
    c. È molto com. nelle locuz. a farlo a., e, con più efficacia espressiva, neanche a farlo a., quasi per dispetto, per una sfavorevole combinazione: sono corso a casa sua ma, neanche a farlo a., era uscito proprio allora.


    A me certamente non verrebbe in mente di usare l'espressione in un esempio come il tuo qui sopra, che mi suona forzato. Dove semmai mi verrebbe da dire 'per fortuna' o il piu' neutro 'per combinazione'.
     

    MintSyrop

    Member
    Italian
    Questa cosa è bizzarra perché in tutta la mia vita non credo di averne mai notato un uso più frequentemente negativo, nel quotidiano mi capita di sentirla usare in entrambi i modi. Anche a livello di senso, ragionando su cosa voglia dire alla lettera, mi sembra del tutto neutra (sì ok, è comunque pacifico che l'uso idiomatico spesso si evolve e supera il significato letterale).
    In ogni caso prendo atto del fatto che "propriamente" sarebbe da usare solo per eventi negativi e cercherò di farci più attenzione d'ora in poi.
     

    london calling

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Oxford gives "as ill luck would have it" for "neanche a farlo apposta." This translation seems consistent with the context of the original sentence:
    • He chose the restaurant because it has great seafood.
    • He didn't know that his ex-girlfriend works there.
    • Therefore, it was "ill luck" that he chose a restaurant where he may have to confront his ex-girlfriend.
    This interpretation assumes that he doesn't want to see or interact with his ex-girlfriend, which is a reasonable assumption. My full translation:
    • Andrea chose the best fish/seafood restaurant in the city for next Saturday's dinner, and as ill luck would have it, his ex-girlfriend works there as a waitress.
    Of course that only works if the person speaking considers whatever we're talking about ill luck and not simply sheer coincidence.

    As ever the correct transaltikon is totally context-dependent. The 'original sentece' has no context whatsoever.
     

    Odysseus54

    Mod huc mod illuc
    Italian - Marche
    Questa cosa è bizzarra perché in tutta la mia vita non credo di averne mai notato un uso più frequentemente negativo, nel quotidiano mi capita di sentirla usare in entrambi i modi. Anche a livello di senso, ragionando su cosa voglia dire alla lettera, mi sembra del tutto neutra (sì ok, è comunque pacifico che l'uso idiomatico spesso si evolve e supera il significato letterale).
    In ogni caso prendo atto del fatto che "propriamente" sarebbe da usare solo per eventi negativi e cercherò di farci più attenzione d'ora in poi.

    Attenzione, non sto correggendo nessuno. Sto dicendo che per me l'espressione in questione ha una sfumatura negativa, come se ci fosse sottinteso un 'mannaggia!' a mezza voce. E che il Treccani dice la stessa cosa. Ma il mondo e' bello perche' e' vario. Non escludo che la maggior precisione (forse) originale sia stata diluita nel linguaggio dei media giovanili (pensa ai dj radiofonici) tutto leggerezza e suggestioni e arguzie e garrula piacioneria.
     
    Top