masz królową

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KasiaS

New Member
Canada
In the song "Dwie Bajki" Doda sings

Wiem że Ty też masz królową

Shouldn't it be królowę?
 
  • JakubikF

    Senior Member
    No, definately, it shouldn't be królowę...there is no such form of word królowa with ę at the end. Look at the nominative form "królowa" - you have "a" at the end, then why do you think it should change into ę instead of ą?
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Look at the nominative form "królowa" - you have "a" at the end, then why do you think it should change into ę instead of ą?
    Because that's the rule! Feminine nouns ending in -a in the nominative take in the accusative (by the way, there's absolutely no logical reason to expect that -ą would be more likely than -ę just because -ą looks more like -a. :)). The ending -ą is used to form the instrumental and to inflect adjectives modifying these nouns in the accusative.

    Example:

    Nominative książka
    Accusative książkę
    Instrumental książką
    Accusative with adjective dobrą książkę

    The word królowa, then, appears to be an exception. Perhaps it's treated like an adjective because -owa is a common adjective ending and you can think of it as król + owa.
     

    JakubikF

    Senior Member
    Perhaps it's treated like an adjective because -owa is a common adjective ending and you can think of it as król + owa.
    I apologize - my mistake. I think that treating it as a adjective is a good explanation. We can consider other similar words with ending "-owa" and all of them need to be declined with "ą" in accusative e.g. surnames of married women: Boczkowa (Boczkową), Kowalowa (Kowalową) etc. (they used to be called like that in the past, nowadays this form of women surnames is not so popular).
     

    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    Surprisingly, królewna is declined according to the normal pattern:
    królewna
    królewnie
    królewny
    królewnę
    królewną
    królewnie

    The word królowa is indeed declined as though it were an adjective.

    Tom
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    I apologize - my mistake. I think that treating it as a adjective is a good explanation. We can consider other similar words with ending "-owa" and all of them need to be declined with "ą" in accusative e.g. surnames of married women: Boczkowa (Boczkową), Kowalowa (Kowalową) etc. (they used to be called like that in the past, nowadays this form of women surnames is not so popular).
    Your reasoning is absloutely right: żona prezydenta (czyli pierwsza dama) to prezydentowa. Mrs Robert Smith, (Robert Smith's wife) would be translated as (Pani) Robertowa Smith (it sounds very English to us).

    Widening the rule, as the queen is (usually) the king's wife, królowa is formed AND conjugated just like these nouns.:thumbsup:
    This way: "Masz królową." BUT "Masz krowę." (krowa jest żoną byka).

    BUT :warning:SZEFOWA:warning: is not the boss' wife. Szefowa is simply a feminine noun form of szef (boss). :D
     

    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    [...]Mrs Robert Smith, (Robert Smith's wife) would be translated as (Pani) Robertowa Smith (it sounds very English to us).
    [...]
    Hi Ryba,

    You will have to elaborate on this one please. I have never seen that and to me it doesn't sound English but it sounds like a poor translation.:confused: Could you give some life examples of such usage please?

    Sometimes, you do use/hear however this sort of formulation when referring to someone's wife like Jarkowa, Markowa, etc., but, if I were to label it, to me this is rather redolent of rural parlance. The given example it just doesn't hold water... :(

    Besides, isn't this Mrs Robert Smith, as put by you, simply the name of a woman?

    Input appreciated. :)

    Tom
     

    JakubikF

    Senior Member
    I must say ryba that I don't understand your opinion at all... Robertowa??? If a man had a surname Robert then his wife could be called "Robertowa". Until it is a name I don't see logical path to call a Marek's, Robert's, Zdzisiek's wives Markowa, Robertowa, Zdziśkowa...
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    Hi Ryba,

    You will have to elaborate on this one please. I have never seen that and to me it doesn't sound English but it sounds like a poor translation.:confused: Could you give some life examples of such usage please?
    Hi, Thomas. This is not a poor translation, just a way to translate this (quite old-fashioned) way of calling a woman using her husband's name used in English-speaking countries. You must have read it somewhere, I saw it for the first time when I was a kid and I was reading L.M. Montgomery's books.

    Państwo Smith (a more colloquial version: Smithowie, the Smiths) would be Mr. and Mrs. Robert Smith. I think this is where the above mentioned usage comes from.

    I couldn't find any info on the phenomenon but i did find some examples:

    Mrs Robert Harrison, née Helen Smith

    Mrs. Thomas Smith
     

    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    Thanks for your answer, Ryba. :)

    Translating Mrs Robert Smith as (Pani) Robertowa Smith is a new thing to me, I must admit as I've never chanced upon it, and it looks off to me, but I will be looking out for it reading Polish literature.

    As to the English version, it is used and it doesn't bother me at all, though it isn't someting you bump into on a daily basis.

    Tom
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    Thanks for your answer, Ryba. :)

    Translating Mrs Robert Smith as (Pani) Robertowa Smith is a new thing to me, I must admit as I've never chanced upon it, and it looks off to me, but I will be looking out for it reading Polish literature.
    English literature translated to Polish.

    Take care. :)

    A detail for KasiaS:

    Other slavic (non Polish) surnames ending with the /ova/ sound are conjugated just like the Polish ones due to their ethimology and since they sound quite the same having the same function linguistically at the same time.

    Widziałem (Accusativus / Biernik: kogo? co?) Vondráčkovą.
    Widziałem (Accusativus / Biernik: kogo? co?) Kournikovą.

    Pozdrawiam :)
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    The ending -ą is used to form the instrumental and to inflect adjectives modifying these nouns in the accusative.

    Example:

    Nominative książka
    Accusative książkę
    Instrumental książką
    Accusative with adjective dobrą książkę

    The word królowa, then, appears to be an exception. Perhaps it's treated like an adjective because -owa is a common adjective ending and you can think of it as król + owa.
    Other examples of words constructed like that:

    cesarzowa = empress
    teściowa = mother-in-law
    synowa = daughter-in-law

    Mam teściową.,
    Pozdrów synową.,
    etc.
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    As to the English version, it is used and it doesn't bother me at all, though it isn't someting you bump into on a daily basis.
    Oh, really?

    Besides, isn't this Mrs Robert Smith, as put by you, simply the name of a woman?
    :rolleyes:

    Sometimes, you do use/hear however this sort of formulation when referring to someone's wife like Jarkowa, Markowa, etc., but, if I were to label it, to me this is rather redolent of rural parlance. The given example it just doesn't hold water... :(
    (Pani) + HUSBAND'S NAME + (FAMILY NAME) + SURNAME doesn't sound rural in Polish. Not at all.

    "Pani Adamowa z Romerów Chrapowiecka" sounds very old-fashioned, maybe even noble, of the gentry, doesn't it?

    Omitting the SURNAME (and the family name, of course) does make it sound colloquial or/and humorous (i.e.: Robert i Robertowa, Pani Kamilowa, etc.) but I was NOT referring to that kind of usage.

    Could you give some life examples of such usage please?
    Yes, I've found one:
    Lucy Maud Montgomery "Dolina Tęczy"
    Spis rozdziałów: (...) Pani Aleksandrowa Davis składa wizytę. (...)
    link
    Maybe I am familiar with it because when I was a young kid I read a couple of Montgomery's books.

    Pozdrawiam. :)
     
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