melon, watermelon

Hemza

Senior Member
French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
Hello everyone,

When I type on google بطيخ, first results concern melon. Some sources say that watermelon is called بطيخ أحمر or دلاع. But a friend tells me that بطيخ is watermelon and melon is شمام and when I type شمام on google, it gives me a variety of it (the green one with orange flesh). Which one is correct? Or are they both correct?

بطيخ=watermelon and/or melon?
شمام= a variety of melon or all kinds of melon?

Thank you.
 
  • I.K.S.

    Senior Member
    Moroccan Arabic
    It is a thing in Arabic !
    Just yesterday night ,i stumbled upon a thread in the Arabic translators forum ,where the OP's suggesting the exploitation of the lexical richness existing in the Arabic dialects to bridge the gap in the ''Fus7a'' ,and as example ,he proposed a solution for the confusion we have in watermelon/melon terminology.
    يمكن للكلمات العامية الكثيرة المستعملة في البلاد العربية للدلالة على "البطيخ الأحمر" مثلاً، ومنها: "رِقِّي" في العراق، "جِبسي" و"نِمْس" في الشام، و"دلاع/ح" في المغرب من جهة، وتلك الدالة على "البطيخ الأصفر" مثلاً ومنها: "بطيخ"، "شمّام"، "آ/قاوُون" من جهة أخرى، إنهاء سوء التفاهم الكبير الحاصل بين أصناف البطيخ! وحل مشكل البطيخ أيسر بكثير من حل مشاكل العلوم المعقدة، عافاكم الله.
    I find the same ambiguity in many other kinds of fruits and species , between family felidae ( tiger ,leopard ,jaguar,cheetah,puma ,,) when translated to Arabic for instance .
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    شكرا جزيلا وأنا كذلك لاحظت أن يوجد غمض من نحية الكليمات المدلة على سلسلة القطة.
     
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    analeeh

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    In Syrian it's بطيخ and شمام.

    I think this is one of those things where fuSHa usage typically just reflects the dialect of the writer.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    In Palestinian Arabic, بطيخ is "watermelon" and شمام is used for other types of melons.

    As a side note, it still sounds bizarre to me to hear someone refer to a watermelon as a melon (in English), because for me watermelon is distinct from all other melon types.
     

    tounsi51

    Senior Member
    French, Tunisian Arabic
    According to Wortatlas der arabischen Dialekte: Band I: Mensch, Natur, Fauna und Flora:

    بطيخ for honeydew/melon us used in North Africa, Irak, Northern Syria and Gulf countries except Saudi
     

    tounsi51

    Senior Member
    French, Tunisian Arabic
    I looked for origin of دُلاَّع and found this definition in maany

    البطيخ الأحمر نَباتٌ مِنْ فَصيلَةِ القَرْعِيَّاتِ ، ثَمَرَتُهُ كَبيرَةُ الحَجْمِ لَها غِطاءٌ أَخْضَرُ سَميكٌ ، حَمْراءُ اللبِّ ، لَذيذَةُ الطَّعْمِ ، بِداخِلِها بُذورٌ سَوْداءُ اللَّوْنِ ، أَوْ ذاتُ بُقَعٍ
     
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    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    Thanks to everyone. I was actually asking for فصحى but you took a good initative to quote the words you use in your dialect(s) since I didn't expect such variety of words for those two fruits :D.

    As tounsi51 said, in the Maghreb دلاع is watermelon and بطيخ is melon.

    True.
    بطيخ is watermelon while شمام or خربز refer to melons.

    I heard جحة for watermelon once. Or is it peculiar to some areas?

    In Iraqi we call a melon بطيخ and a watermelon رقي (as far as I'm aware that's raggi, not riggi).

    Do you know its origin? Is it peculiar to Iraq or also used in the Gulf or Syria?
     

    Aloulu

    Senior Member
    Tunisian Arabic
    Chamam in Tunisia is the small type of melon, yellow from the inside. Whereas battikh is the bigger type of melon, green on the inside. This one (battikh) is in Tunisia at least much more common. Watermelon is dela3a indeed.
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    In east of Algeria (border near Tunisia), we use the word fegus (فقوس ).
    Someone have a clue about it's origins ?

    Isn't it rather "fegguus"? (بتشيد القاف). I have no idea because in Morocco, فقوس is a kind of cucumber, not melon. Except if melons and cucumber are from the same family, that may explain the use of فقوس for melon.
     

    3arbiChawi

    New Member
    Arabic, French
    Isn't it rather "fegguus"? (بتشيد القاف). I have no idea because in Morocco, فقوس is a kind of cucumber, not melon. Except if melons and cucumber are from the same family, that may explain the use of فقوس for melon.
    Seems to be the right answer. yateek saha !
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    In Northern Yemen, the word دلاع is also known but it seems to point at something else. The dictionary I have says it means
    القرع الذي يستفاد منه كأوان
    Does أوان means container?

    Also, I randomly found this about Palestine this time:

    ويسمى الــدلاع أيضاً في فلسطين، وحسب قول الزهراوي في الشام. وهو دلاّع حسب الكالا، وشو (1: 217) ودومب (ص71) وهو دَلاّع في قول آخرين

    The article even adds this about Hebrew:

    كما أن الكلمة قديمة التوثيق في العبرية مما يعزز شيوعها في الشرق الأوسط ولعلها مادة سامية، ففي العبرية يسمى القرع أو اليقطين دلّوع (דלוע). في حين أن عائلة القرعيات تسمى اليوم دلوعيم (דלועיים -gourd).

    https://amsebrid.wordpress.com/2018/03/28/etymology-of-melon-in-the-arabic-dialects/
     
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    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    القرع الذي يستفاد منه كأوان
    Does أوان means container?
    Yes, there is a special type of it used for that but I don't know if this (دلاع) is what you're talking about.

    These words قرع -يقطين و بطيخ-شمام- كانتالوب- أناناس are really confusing and differ from country to another (it also differs in the same country).
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    Yes, there is a special type of it used for that but I don't know if this (دلاع) is what you're talking about.
    شكرا على تعاونك :).
    According to the dictionary I have of Yemeni, the word دلاع is used for this purpose.

    These words قرع -يقطين و بطيخ-شمام- كانتالوب- أناناس are really confusing and differ from country to another (it also differs in the same country).

    Yes and I suspect that anyone would be influenced by his dialect when writing down the word for Standard Arabic use purposes. It's always sensitive when coming to food since it varies from an area to another.
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    مسميات البطيخ والقرعيات في اللهجات العربية

    What a tricky word!! So many variations!


    Ps: In the article, it says that in Egypt, you call "melon" أناناس. Is it true? @sun_shine 331995 you also brought the word أناناس which -before I check the article- is to me a completely different fruit. Is the article right about melon being called اناناس in Egypt? (and my friend who mocked the fact we call it بطيخ and told me بتدمروا اللغة :D ). Please, tell me it is true just to allow me to take my revenge on his words :D:p.

    Ps2: مرحوم عند الجزائريين ههههههه "تحب تاكل مرحوم؟" هذا يوقف الشهية
    Ps3: الأفضل عند الصومال :D :D :D :D :D
     
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    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    Ps: In the article, it says that in Egypt, you call "melon" أناناس. Is it true?
    You can take your revenge :D .
    There are three types: أناناس و شمام و كانتالوب and some people call each by its name (including me). But to be frank, lots of people call them أناناس as you said. :D (maybe just in rural areas??). @cherine , what do you think?

    الشمام
    الكانتالوب
    أناناس
     

    I.K.S.

    Senior Member
    Moroccan Arabic
    it says that in Egypt, you call "melon"أناناس
    We call it ananas too, But only to that type called Ananas melon in English
    PS: The blogger made a mistake about البطيخ الأصفر in Morocco, we actually don't use it, we call it المهاية instead.
     
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    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Cantaloupe/melon was introduced in Egypt in the early 1990s. At that time, pineapple wasn't widely eaten as it was, and still is, an expensive fruit. So maybe merchants thought of calling melon ananas for the name was already known, especially that melon is much cheaper. But to my knowledge كانتالوب and أناناس both refer to melon, and أناناس is also pineapple. Personally, I only use أناناس for ananas/pineapple.
     

    momai

    Senior Member
    Ar
    Syria:
    بطيخ (أحمر) أو جبس = watermelon
    بطيخ أصفر أو شمام أو قاوون = melon
     

    dakaplo

    Senior Member
    English - United States
    You can take your revenge :D .
    There are three types: أناناس و شمام و كانتالوب and some people call each by its name (including me). But to be frank, lots of people call them أناناس as you said. :D (maybe just in rural areas??). @cherine , what do you think?

    الشمام
    الكانتالوب
    أناناس

    You call the green one الكانتالوب but not the orange one? In English (at least for me), cantaloupe can only refer to the orange one, and not the green, which is honeydew. I wonder how that switched!

    In Marrakech, the words I learned were دلّاح (with a Haa at the end, not an ع) for watermelon, and مْنون for all other types of melon, presumably from the word "melon." أناناس as far as I remember was only ever pineapple.
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    You can take your revenge :D .
    Thanks :D.

    We call it ananas too, But only to that type called Ananas melon in English
    I've never heard أناناس for melon :D. Is it outdated?

    This spoiled my revenge against my Egyptian friend haha.

    PS: The blogger made a mistake about البطيخ الأصفر in Morocco, we actually don't use it, we call it المهاية instead

    Again, I've never heard this term, at least in فأس, there is دلاح/دلاع for watermelon and بطيخ for melon.

    In Marrakech, the words I learned were دلّاح (with a Haa at the end, not an ع)

    Both variants exist, the one with ح being exclusively Moroccan in the Maghreb.

    for watermelon, and مْنون for all other types of melon, presumably from the word "melon." أناناس as far as I remember was only ever pineapple.

    I've never heard منون and it's odd people would borrow a word from French as the fruit exists :eek:. Of course, I'm not denying it existence but it puzzles me.
     
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    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    I asked to make sure.
    watermelon is بطيخ
    الكانتالوب the green one, people called it أناناس
    the orange is شمّام
     

    I.K.S.

    Senior Member
    Moroccan Arabic
    I've never heard أناناس for melon :D. Is it outdated?

    This spoiled my revenge against my Egyptian friend haha.
    It is actually a new product and term introduced to the market about 15 year ago...
    t inquiètus...I won't tell him ;)
    Again, I've never heard this term, at least in فأس, there is دلاح/دلاع for watermelon and بطيخ for melon.
    For the melon varieties here in the west we differentiate between them, the green one is سويهلة the orange is بتيخ and the yellow is مهاية
    Both variants exist, the one with ح being exclusively Moroccan in the Maghreb.
    True, Watermelon aside, The ع and ح are both pharyngeal fricative sounds, So the shift between them occurs in many other words, Ex:
    هو باعها (الدار تاعو) / هو باحها > باحا
     

    gbasfora

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Brazil
    Syria:
    بطيخ (أحمر) أو جبس = watermelon
    بطيخ أصفر أو شمام أو قاوون = melon
    the families of my paternal and maternal grandparents were from Betlahem and I always heard them say بطيخ for watermelon and بطيخ أصفر for melon.
     

    Hemza

    Senior Member
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    It is actually a new product and term introduced to the market about 15 year ago...
    :D I'm the outdated one then!
    For the melon varieties here in the west we differentiate between them, the green one is سويهلة the orange is بتيخ and the yellow is مهاية
    I merely know about سويهلة (which is to my knowledge not used that much in فأس) but in my family, they seem to not differentiate, it's all بطيخ for any kind of melon.

    As for بتيخ now you say it, it's true that some people pronounce it this way haha.
     
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