Members profile: Why was info about profession and gender removed?

lauranazario

Moderatrix
Español puertorriqueño & US English
I'm not sure what you mean by impervious to this pronoun storm". Of course WR is part of the bigger culture of language and it's usage.
Ok, then let me express it in a different way:

I hope WR will not utilize the same tactics used by other American companies (like LI, the example brought by Nanon) and continues to evade the pronoun-centered issues currently taking the US by storm.
Why? Because this site caters to an international community that should not be forced to adhere to American idiosyncrasies.

Pronouns of all kinds are (sorry) here to stay. Once someone has decided they're a ze, there'll be no going back to he or she for ze. It's a done deal.
In the US, that is.
Good luck trying to convince someone to use that pronoun or address them as 'ze' in a country/culture/society what this sort of thing is taboo.

Let us once and for all be convinced that the proposal to specify one's pronouns in WR is not destined to be required. People will not be coerced into revealing their gender(s), and there will be no subtle pressure to "conform" and tell all. Far from it: this would be an optional, write-in field where a person can specify or not their pronouns. If you consider it exclusive, offensive, or confusing, move on to the next field (profession;))
Let us once and for all be convinced that no matter how much we may discuss things, the ultimate decision as to what happens in WR resides/rests on the owner's shoulders.
He'll read all we write... but the ultimate choice is solely his. ;)
 
  • elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    the resistance to pronouns
    No one has the right to be "resistant" to non-traditional pronouns. It is a fact that many people -- all over the world, not just in the US -- do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. "Resisting" their authentic forms of self-expression is only denying reality and inflicting psychological pain on these people. What if I "resisted" your right to identify as a native speaker of Slovak? What if I told you that wasn't an option, and you had to identify as a native speaker of Czech because in my view anyone from former Czechoslovakia is a speaker of Czech and I don't believe in the existence of a Slovak language? What if this website offered a drop-down menu of languages to choose from, and "Slovak" was deliberately not an option?
    damaged communication (where you don't name what you see)
    Gender is not about what you see. "Communication" that forces people to be referred to using pronouns they don't identify with is damaging, toxic, and abusive.
    a dictat which is predicated on faith
    Like @Reina de la Aldea, I am thoroughly puzzled by this assertion. This has absolutely nothing to do with faith or religion. As a matter of fact, in my personal experience most people who are trans or non-binary are not religious at all.
     

    Roxxxannne

    Senior Member
    American English (New England and NYC)
    Because I have to do the laundry, I will get off here for now. But before I go, let me just ask in re swift's #96:
    A) do you think this thread was at some point an 'academic discussion' about pronoun choice?
    B) is it still (aside from this comment)?
    C) If your answer to A) is yes and B) is no, where do you think it changed?

    (all answers are, of course, optional)
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    Gender is not about what you see.
    Not gender, pronouns are about what we see.
    What if I "resisted" your right to identify as a native speaker of Slovak?
    I am not sure what it means, I don't identify as a native speaker of Slovak or anything else.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with faith or religion.
    I meant is as an example of a non-religious faiths around which people organize.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    do you think this thread was at some point an 'academic discussion' about pronoun choice?
    It never was. There’s not enough oxygen in the room for people who would like to have that type of conversation. That’s why DearPrudence’s thread was closed. That’s why multiple threads in the Sólo Español forum end up being closed and people’s legitimate questions are met with full-frontal mocking, attacks and moderators that minimize their concerns. That’s why moderators turn a blind eye on transphobic comments in the “non-language” forums. That’s why professionals (linguists, translators, and others) prefer to have those discussions in actually welcoming, academic, collaborative, respectful and cordial spaces, and consider WRF a hostile environment.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    pronouns are about what we see.
    They are not.
    I don't identify as a native speaker of Slovak
    You have "Slovak" listed as your native language in your profile. Anyway, if you don't identify as a native speaker of Slovak, pick something you do identify as and imagine you weren't allowed to on this site. I think my point was clear.
    I meant is as an example of a non-religious faiths around which people organize.
    It's not about any kind of faith. It's about people's personal experiences and realities. There are, thankfully, activist groups fighting for these people's rights to be seen, validated, and respected for who they truly and authentically are. But many trans and non-binary people are not part of these groups.
     

    Roxxxannne

    Senior Member
    American English (New England and NYC)
    It never was. There’s not enough oxygen in the room for people who would like to have that type of conversation. That’s why DearPrudence’s thread was closed. That why multiple threads in the Sólo Español forum end up being closed and people’s legitimate questions are met with full-frontal attacks and moderators that minimize their concerns. That’s why professionals (linguists, translators, and others) have those discussions in actually welcoming, academic, collaborative, respectful and cordial spaces.
    Right. People who are sad that WRF is not collaborative and welcoming expect it to be something that it obviously isn't and can't be. On the plus side, at least there are welcoming, academic, collaborative, respectful and cordial spaces for discussions.
    How do I join? I get to talk about gender issues only with regular ordinary people as they address them in everyday life, not with professionals.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    People who are sad that WRF is not collaborative and welcoming expect it to be something that it obviously isn't and can't be.
    I love the language discussions, whose quality and dynamism are probably unmatched. And that's why I stay. The levels of transphobia on WRF are truly shocking. :(
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    They are not.
    In my language direct use of pronouns is infrequent, but in English I use pronouns according to what I see, since English lessons where we learned them by referring to drawings. If they weren't supposed to be used referring to what one sees, I would have run into misunderstandings by now.
    pick something you do identify as
    I don't think I identify as anything.
    It's about people's personal experiences and realities.
    Sure, but they must all agree that there is such a thing as gender identity. I saw discussions on reddit where people actively search for it, trying to pick one.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I use pronouns according to what I see, since English lessons where we learned them by referring to drawings. If they weren't supposed to be used referring to what one sees, I would have run into misunderstandings by now.
    I'm not sure what you're referring to. Traditionally, people assume others' genders based on certain physical characteristics. If they assume the person is male, they will use the pronouns "he/him/his," and if they assume the person is female, they will use the pronouns "she/her/hers." The point is that many people's true gender doesn't align with those assumptions and the pronouns used to refer to them don't ring true for them. While this is uncomfortable for people who are only familiar/comfortable with the male-female binary, it doesn't make the experiences and realities of trans and non-binary people any less valid and legitimate. Again, "resisting" their realities is like "resisting" the existence of the Slovak language.
    I don't think I identify as anything.
    If someone asks you "What is your native language?" and you say "Slovak," then you identify as a native speaker of Slovak. It doesn't mean you actively go around and trumpet this fact and make it an important part of what you do. It means that is the native language you use to label/identify yourself when necessary. In any event, however you feel vis-à-vis the Slovak language, how would you feel if the website offered a drop-down menu for native language and Slovak were deliberately not included? And how would you feel if you complained about this to the owner and he said, "We don't recognize Slovak as a language and insist that everyone from former Czechoslovakia list Czech as their native language"?
    they must all agree that there is such a thing as gender identity.
    Everyone has a gender identify. Cis-gender people who have never had to think about these things have identified with their gender their whole lives without consciously being aware of it.
    I saw discussions on reddit where people actively search for it, trying to pick one.
    I'm not sure I understand. Some people may have trouble designating their gender identify, but that doesn't mean they don't have one. For some people, it's complex, which is why some people identify as (for example) "gender-fluid" or "genderqueer."
     

    Roxxxannne

    Senior Member
    American English (New England and NYC)
    I love the language discussions, whose quality and dynamism are probably unmatched. And that's why I stay. The levels of transphobia on WRF are truly shocking. :(
    Not just transphobia, all sorts of hostility about all sorts of things.
     
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    Nanon

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    Ok, then let me express it in a different way:

    I hope WR will not utilize the same tactics used by other American companies (like LI, the example brought by Nanon) and continues to evade the pronoun-centered issues currently taking the US by storm.
    Why? Because this site caters to an international community that should not be forced to adhere to American idiosyncrasies.


    In the US, that is.
    Good luck trying to convince someone to use that pronoun or address them as 'ze' in a country/culture/society what this sort of thing is taboo.
    OK... let me explain. Gender studies, choosing pronouns, using non-binary language and not being heteronormative are not taboo where I live. About the story I shared, luckily, LI invited me but didn't force me to state pronouns in my profile. And while I understand the purpose of this pronoun campaign - who knows, maybe some day it will help if someone blows the whistle for being discriminated because of having used a non-binary pronoun (whatever the language) in their profile - I find that pushing for pronoun choice based on the standards of a different country and culture is not cross-cultural. Caveat: again, I do not say that country or society A is better than B.

    This reminds me of most forms in the US that ask you for your race/ethnicity. They almost never include "Middle Eastern," so I don't have the option of actually disclosing my race/ethnicity if I'd like to (unless there's a fill-in option). "Other" forces me to be unspecific, and "Do not wish to disclose" doesn't apply if I actually do wish to disclose.
    Which reminds me of Brazilians who hate being forced into choosing "Hispanic". Back on topic: I think that the best choice to define one's identity (not for statistics, of course) is indeed free text.

    I will share another story: I added the "female" symbol to my profile because my WR pseudonym does not look feminine, except maybe to some (not all) French speakers, so I was systematically being addressed or referred to using masculine. Nothing against men, but would my posts be read differently if my pseudonym was, erm, Lolita? (Caveat #2: I did not choose my user name with the purpose of sounding or looking masculine).

    Finally (sorry for hogging the stage, here), I wish to reply to @lauranazario's post #77 calling me out on my discriminatory (snobbish?) attitude about how data in a member's profile (gender, age, profession, etc.) might influence my receptivity and/or evaluation of their posts in the forums. That's a sad thing to contemplate. It's impossible to avoid, however. Information influences our points of view and our opinions. This is why, in interviewing a job candidate, it is illegal to ask for data such as gender, age, or marital status. What I had in mind when I wrote my post #64 was a scenario such as this: A member needs a translation of a term having to do with hen's eggs ("huevo huero de gallina"). I read the post and, intrigued by the challenge, set about doing some research into the term, also known as "embarazo anembrionado". A few minutes later and several iterations of translations of Wikipedia pages, I come up with "blighted egg". The member thanks me profusely, says it's exactly what they were looking for, etc. I feel rewarded, and I move on. Then comes the notification that another user has replied to the same thread. "Blighted egg" is not the correct term, it reads; it's "addled egg". At this point I check out the member's profile, only to discover that he (already specified) is a retired farmer. Feeling then entirely convinced of his translation, I give him a thumbs up.
    I am sceptical about professions. While the retired farmer example is good, another member with irrelevant or no information about their occupation(s) could have provided a correct response too (not to mention incorrect information... even ministers and prominent politicians have fake PhD degrees :eek:).
     
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    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    Zapotecs were—and continue to be—so much more enlightened than modern occidental societies:

    Muxe - Wikipedia

    If only imperialists and the catholic church had stepped back at some point and said... wait, let’s respect the local idiosyncrasies instead of imposing our standards.
     
    I am sceptical about professions. While the retired farmer example is good, another member with irrelevant or no information about their occupation(s) could have provided a correct response too (not to mention incorrect information... even ministers and prominent politicians have fake PhD degrees :eek:).
    Specifying one's profession, as far as I'm concerned, needn't be part of one's WR profile. For now. I happen to think it would be a nice option, but that's me, and I'm not going to fight that battle. Right now. It's in a different league from the issue of pronouns

    I wish to quote some of the article cited by swift, as it's not always convenient to hacer clic
    Zapotecs were—and continue to be—so much more enlightened than modern occidental societies:

    Muxe - Wikipedia
    From the article:
    In Zapotec cultures of Oaxaca (southern Mexico), a muxe (also spelled muxhe; [muʃeʔ]) is a person assigned male at birth who dresses and behaves in ways otherwise associated with women; they may be seen as a third gender.[1][2]
    Anthropologist Beverly Chiñas explained in 1995 that in the Zapotec culture, "the idea of choosing gender or of sexual orientation is as ludicrous as suggesting that one can choose one's skin color."[9] Most people traditionally view their gender as something God has given them (whether man, woman, or muxe), and few muxe desire genital surgery. They generally do not suffer from gender dysphoria. There is not as much pressure to "pass" as in Western societies.[citation needed]
    This "pressure to 'pass'' " as either male or female is what I meant by pigeonholing (#71)
    I find that pushing for pronoun choice based on the standards of a different country and culture is not cross-cultural.
    Not meaning to mock you, Nanon, only to echo your sentiment from another point of view: I find pushing someone to tick off one of three boxes for gender identity based on the standards of a conservative group of members of WR to be highly non-inclusive
    I was systematically being addressed or referred to using masculine. Nothing against men, but would my posts be read differently if my pseudonym was, erm, Lolita?
    This supports my point that we need a way to address people properly, according to their wishes, and in accordance with the pronouns they voluntarily provide in their profile
     
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    I find pushing someone to tick off one of three boxes for gender identity based on the standards of a conservative group of members of WR to be highly non-inclusive
    We don't "push" anyone to do anything, that's exactly what the option "NO SELECTION" is there for.
    The only piece of information that is required on WR is the native language. Everything else is optional.
    It goes without saying that if some members choose of their own accord to put in some extra personal information, we expect it to be accurate.

    Rule 18 - Represent yourself honestly.
    You may register with one user name only.
    Do not pretend to be someone you are not: this includes gender, nationality and native language.
    You must provide your native language, including your country or the variety you speak (eg: "English - Ireland" or "Mexican Spanish") for languages with multiple regions. Who you are and where you are from is very important to understanding any translations or other language information that you provide
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    I find pushing someone to tick off one of three boxes for gender identity based on the standards of a conservative group of members of WR to be highly non-inclusive
    Gender identity and pronouns are two different things; as long as there is an 'atheist' button for the first, I am happy.

    I saw on Tik Tok that some people choose three pronouns, e.g. She, they, her. They need to be used in correct proportions, otherwise it counts as misgendering.
    She put her gloves on, they was cold.
    I don't remember what gender identity that TikTok user was.

    Where is profession info found, in the 'about'?
     
    We don't "push" anyone to do anything, that's exactly what the option "NO SELECTION" is there for.
    Maybe "push" is too strong a word. I was echoing Nanon's prior comment, which guided my choice of words. I mentioned that there are three choices: M, F, and No Selection. But as Elias has pointed out (#86)
    The point is that people who
    a) would like to disclose their gender
    and
    b) do not identify as either "male" or "female"
    should have the option to do so.

    They should not be forced to choose "Do not wish to disclose"[or No Selection] if they do in fact wish to disclose.
    I ignored the gender field originally, effectively choosing "No Selection", as I was afraid my posts would not be taken as seriously if I identified myself as female. With time, and as I grew comfortable speaking my mind in the forums, I opted to tick off the Female box. Guess what? It wasn't the way the other members reacted to my posts that changed. It was my posts themselves -- what I chose to write -- that was affected. I felt more myself, more genuine, less of an imposter you might say, and that was subtly reflected in my writing. I was no longer in hiding, and I could breathe freer. Revealing my age gave me the same boost. It allowed me to be more me

    With a write-in field, no one has to select a thing or disclose a thing. One can sail on past without filling in the blank, and there will be members who do so for various reasons, even, unfortunately, out of fear
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    It's very simple to refer (in English) to other members you don't know as "they" or by their chosen username. I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble of checking on everyone's preferred pronoun for fear of mis-gendering them, so what would be the practical advantage to supplying one's "pronouns"?
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    I think ABOUT option could be more accessible, when we hover over the popup rectangle. Next to Start Conversation somewhere.
    If the OCCUPATION field is filled out, is the occupation visible somewhere?
     

    Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    I can't see any Occupation info on your profile as yet - I'll give it another 5 minutes then try again...
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble of checking on everyone's preferred pronoun for fear of mis-gendering them, so what would be the practical advantage to supplying one's "pronouns"?
    It's not about what you or anyone else would or wouldn't do with the information. It's about giving everyone the same opportunity to reveal the information if they choose to. Providing only "male," "female," and "no selection" as options is the same as providing a dropdown menu of native languages and only including some languages and "no selection" as options.
     

    Bevj

    Allegra Moderata (Sp/Eng, Cat)
    English (U.K.)
    Providing only "male," "female," and "no selection" as options is the same as providing a dropdown menu of native languages and only including some languages and "no selection" as options.
    Then the solution is easy. Remove all gender options, bathroom symbols, cute faces, pinks and blues altogether. Use the 'About You' box to add this information - if you wish.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    That would not be linked with the "mini-bio" popup that you get when you click on someone's user name, and I think many people would like that information to be readily accessible without having to go dig around in someone's profile.

    It should be eminently simple to just add a fourth option to the three currently available ones of "Male," "Female" and "No selection": a write-in option where the user can specify their gender and/or pronouns. It's really not that complicated.
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    I think 'gender' option should be renamed to 'sex' - each language distinguishes between sexes, but the distinction sex-gender does not exist everywhere.

    Then another option could be added - 'gender identity'.
     

    Nanon

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    This supports my point that we need a way to address people properly, according to their wishes, and in accordance with the pronouns they voluntarily provide in their profile
    But this also supports my point: the pronoun approach is too restrictive for the purpose of completing a profile in WR unless you use English only. I am familiar - not quite comfortable, but familiar - with the approach of introducing myself as "Hello, my name is Nanon and my pronouns are she and her". But what sense does it make in a language with no gender-marked pronouns (Hungarian, for example)? This becomes tricky as well with languages in which second (and sometimes first!) person pronouns are gendered.
    The challenge is that instead of crystallising on the norm of "stating pronouns", we need to find a wording or a category that would work universally, in all languages if possible.
    And again, we are focusing on gender identity which, of course, is important, but including non-binary gender definitions does not suffice to tackle prejudice and intolerance in WR: not only homophobia or transphobia but also sexism, racism, classism and discrimination of all sorts.

    Speaking about pronouns, another information that some members may wish to add in free text in their profiles is what @mkellogg indicated here:
    BTW, you can use tú/tu with me in Spanish :)
    Yet I am not sure how to handle this in a profile either, because T/V habits may differ from one language/culture to another: the same person may use tu in language A and stick to the vous form in language B. Or maybe they don't even have that choice because they use a language without T/V distinction.
     

    swift

    Senior Member
    Spanish – Costa Rica (Valle Central)
    If you are monolingual and only participate in English Only, add your English pronouns if you wish to do so. If you participate in English-XX forums, and if you feel like it, add your English pronouns and, if you wish, the pronouns in the target language you use most often (e.g., he/his/él). If you participate in multiple forums in multiple languages, add the pronouns that make sense to you and if you're using the Spanish forum, for instance, whatever English pronouns you entered will be completely irrelevant. You are Chinese and only participate in Chinese? Add nothing. The pronoun information is a flex field and it’s optional.

    It's not that complicated.
     
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    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    The field will of course have to have a character limit. I reckon that in at least 90% of cases, users will find the space sufficient for their needs. In the few cases where that's not the case, they can add supplementary information in their profiles. For example, I have "US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual" under "Native Language." This doesn't tell the whole story, but it's the best I could do with the space I had. This is why my profile says "I grew up speaking both US English and Palestinian Arabic. If you'd like more details, send me a private message. ;)".
     

    Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    Just to say, further to posts 123 et seq, that I still can't see any "Occupation" information in the About section of siares' profile.

    It seems that, as far as profession/occupation goes, we're in the same position as in Mike's post 2:
    [...]

    Profession/occupation? I am trying to remember if I didn't include it on purpose or not. I may have done it to reduce spam, but it also may have been an oversight. Maybe one of the moderators will remind me. I think it was just an oversight.
     

    Rocko!

    Senior Member
    Español - México
    People should always say what they want to be given, regardless of whether others agree or not, and then the dilemma will only be a problem for those who have the power to give or take away the apparent solution. This thread in this forum only proves the veracity of this reality. If the apparent solution does not inconvenience or annoy the vast majority, then one must ask why it is not given. If it bothers an economically important sector, it should not be given. We are a sea of people, not an ocean of differences. What we are is a community driven by interests or economic motivations.
     

    Rocko!

    Senior Member
    Español - México
    redditwr.jpg
     

    rotan

    Senior Member
    Polish
    If someone asks you "What is your native language?" and you say "Slovak," then you identify as a native speaker of Slovak.
    He doesn't identify as a native speaker of Slovak - he is a native speaker of Slovak
    How can you even "identify" as a particular language speaker?
    There's no such thing, you either speak a language or you don't
    People who he was raised around spoke that language so he absorbed it naturally, it's not a matter of "identifying" with anything


    Providing only "male," "female," and "no selection" as options is the same as providing a dropdown menu of native languages and only including some languages and "no selection" as options.
    The reason why you let people choose from virtually every language in the world is because that's the goddamn point of a lingual forum; to provide solutions for as many languages as possible
    It's not beacuse there's "freedom of choice"

    Also, all those languages are historically and scientifically grounded, you can't deny the existence of e.g Slovak language
    But this doesn't work the same with genders; the only "scientifically grounded" genders are male and female - the rest is just a figment of imagination

    "Let me change my mother tongue to Spanish and fool everyone around that I can speak it. Oh let me also pick "non-binary" though I'm clearly a male, because hey, there's freedom of choice"
    No, that's not how it works
    Freedom of choice doesn't mean you can go for things which are not documented, just like freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say anything without taking responsibility for it
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    How can you even "identify" as a particular language speaker?
    You can absolutely identify as a native speaker of a specific language. Not everyone's linguistic background is straightforward. Many people grow up with significant exposure to more than one language, and they may or may not identify as a native speaker of all of them.
    There's no such thing, you either speak a language or you don't
    I was only talking about identifying as a native speaker of a language, but you are wrong regardless. Just as it's not always straightforward to determine whether or not you are a native speaker of a certain language, it's also very often (probably much more often) tricky to draw the line between being a "learner" and a "speaker" of a language.
    The reason why you let people choose from virtually every language in the world is because that's the goddamn point of a lingual forum; to provide solutions for as many languages as possible
    It's not beacuse there's "freedom of choice"
    Congratulations on missing the point entirely.
    all those languages are historically and scientifically grounded
    What are "all those languages"? There are many -- let's call them linguistic systems -- for which there is not universal agreement, even among linguists and scientists, as to whether they are or aren't languages. Case in point: Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian. One language or three? This is just one of very many examples of how it's not as straightforward as you're making it out to be.
    you can't deny the existence of e.g Slovak language
    You can. Czech and Slovak are so similar to each other that many people suggest that they should perhaps be considered dialects of the same language. There are threads about this in the forum; you can search for them. Maltese is a dialect of Arabic that is now universally recognized as its own language, although it's not substantially further from Standard Arabic than some other dialects. Same with Luxembourgish: it's a dialect of German that is now universally recognized as its own language, although it's not substantially further from Standard German than some other dialects. There have been movements to declare Lebanese Arabic as its own language, and so on and so forth. None of this is as straightforward as you're making it out to be. Google "difference between dialect and language."
    the only "scientifically grounded" genders are male and female - the rest is just a figment of imagination
    There are two predominant biological sexes, although they do not apply to every single person. Gender is not a figment of anyone's imagination; what gives you the right to presume to know whether or not somebody else's experience is valid or not? Gender is not about biology, so you can't make any claims about someone else's gender based on what you physically see.
    Oh let me also pick "non-binary" though I'm clearly a male
    Someone who is non-binary is not male, although they may have been assigned male sex at birth. They are not just randomly picking something for no reason.
    No, that's not how it works
    It is a fact that many people's gender and gender identity do not align with the sex they were assigned at birth. The way it should work is that everyone should have the right to assert their true gender and have it validated.
    Freedom of choice doesn't mean you can go for things which are not documented
    There are many things that weren't documented for years because people didn't know about them, so that's neither here nor there. Your gender identity is also not a matter of choice. The only choice you have is whether to declare/assert it and seek for it to be validated.
    just like freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say anything without taking responsibility for it
    Total red herring.
     

    rotan

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Perhaps we should skip that "identifying as a language speaker" thing as it still doesn't make any sense to me

    That's actually my point; some of the ones you mentioned are recognized as own languages, so you can only speculate whether it's necessary, but you can't negative it is the country's own
    It's kinda like citizenship in a foreign country; when you get one you are oficially a national but for most people you are still a foreigner
    However all they can do is keep talking, they won't take it back from you

    And I can sort of bring that comparison to sex/gender as well - to me, sex is like citizenship, a thing that "oficially" describes me, an undeniable thing
    And gender is just those people talking - unnecesary, some even annoying

    This might be superficial, but if I'm being honest, that's how it always should be
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    There are two predominant biological sexes, although they do not apply to every single person.
    Biological sex simply can't apply to one species only.
    Sex in nature is always binary, according to gamete production: small and mobile; large and immobile. Nothing in between.

    You said yourself:
    Gender is not about biology,...


    (but I think this would be better in CC..)
     
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    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    @rotan, thank you for explaining. If I've understood you correctly, you're saying that "male" and "female" should be the only options because those are the only two that are traditionally used on official documents and every one of us is assigned one of the two at birth. You are right that these are the only two designations that have been used historically. What's happening is that we are evolving and recognizing that (1) there is a difference between biological sex and gender identity, and (2) the latter is not restricted to two categories. What some of us are arguing for in this thread is to allow people to express their gender identity as opposed to the biological sex they were assigned at birth. The latter is based purely on physical features, while the former is based on a person's lived emotional and social reality.
    gender is just those people talking - unnecesary, some even annoying
    It's not unnecessary. Being misgendered has caused many people untold psychological damage, so validating their gender identity is necessary for the improvement of their wellbeing and that of others. Whether it's "annoying" is of course a subjective reaction; in any event, not all that is annoying is bad or unnecessary.
    Biological sex simply can't apply to one species only.
    Of course not. I never said or implied it did.
    Sex in nature is always binary [...] Nothing in between.
    I don't agree, but whether or not this is true is actually not relevant to what I and others are saying, because, as I said above, our whole point is that it should not be about biology.
     

    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    Of course not. I never said or implied it did.
    Then could we keep the option male/female as 'sex' rather than more confusing 'gender'?
    Could you copy here how those options are termed in other language choices on this site?

    (Even though biological sex is supposedly kept out of the equation, non-binary people seek Eunuch procedures.
    Non-Binary Surgery - Crane Center for Transgender Surgery

    If sex is not binary, and neither are gender identities, 'non-binary' is an illogical category.
    Believing both in lack of binary sex and non-binary identity is a belief in contradicting categories - a spiritual/religious belief.
    Another quasi religious belief: 'as long as a licensed surgeon does it, and it happens in a hospital, paid by insurance, it is magically not abuse'.)
     

    rotan

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Yea it's just funny it's only been a case for the past few years
    I honestly don't get why people are constantly coming up with more and more unnecessary, controversial, and triggering stuff
    I'm not against anything unless someone tries to implant it everywhere
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Then could we keep the option male/female as 'sex' rather than more confusing 'gender'?
    For the purposes of language discussions, I'm personally not particularly interested in knowing what kind of genitalia people have.
    Could you copy here how those options are termed in other language choices on this site?
    Sorry, I don't have that information.
    Even though biological sex is supposedly kept out of the equation, non-binary people seek Eunuch procedures.
    Not all non-binary people seek sex reassignment surgery. Some do, because it makes them feel more comfortable in their body. No one said that biological sex is "kept out of the equation." What we're saying is that, for example, having a penis does not equate to having male gender. You can have a penis and identify as female, and, as a female, you may or may not seek sex reassignment surgery, depending on the relevance of what your body looks like to your psycho-socio-emotional well-being. So biological sex is relevant; it just doesn't neatly align with gender.
    If sex is not binary, and neither are gender identities, 'non-binary' is an illogical category.
    I'm sorry; I don't follow. Because it's not binary, "non-binary" is a category. People who identify as non-binary do not identify as either "male" or "female" but something else, which is possible because gender is non-binary. They're two ways of saying the same thing.
    Believing both in lack of binary sex and non-binary identity is a belief in contradicting categories
    I don't understand this either.
    'as long as a licensed surgeon does it, and it happens in a hospital, paid by insurance, it is magically not abuse'.
    It's not abuse as long as you are an adult capable of giving informed consent, and you do give that consent, having been sufficiently informed about the process and the risks involved.
    it's only been a case for the past few years
    Well, society is always evolving and developing.
    I honestly don't get why people are constantly coming up with more and more unnecessary, controversial, and triggering stuff
    People aren't just stirring up controversy for the heck of it. Even if a few people are doing that (for whatever reason), there are definitely plenty of people for whom this is legitimate, and that's who we should focus on.
    I'm not against anything unless someone tries to implant it everywhere
    I'm not sure what you mean. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
     

    rotan

    Senior Member
    Polish
    That's my general opinion on it, I don't mean anything particular
    But yea, to me it's more like devolving
     
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    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    For the purposes of language discussions, I'm personally not particularly interested in knowing what kind of genitalia people have.
    I cannot teach learners to use pronouns according to mental state of a human in a picture in front of them. Language describese speaker's perception of reality, and pronouns are taught to be used as referring to the perceived sex. That includes genitals, which most of the time align with perceived sex. Genitals are vitally important. No language fails to distinguish between biological sexes. I hope teachers here will not get advice which will make their students fail exams.
    Because it's not binary, "non-binary" is a category. People who identify as non-binary do not identify as either "male" or "female" but something else, which is possible because gender is non-binary. They're two ways of saying the same thing.
    Do you mean 'Because sex is non-binary' or because gender is non-binary'?
    In any case, in such a system all identities are non-binary, including male and female.
    It's not abuse as long as you are an adult capable of giving informed consent, and you do give that consent, having been sufficiently informed about the process and the risks involved.
    Mentally unbalanced or mentally ill people cannot give consent. This is less important if the choice is between having a surgery and dying of cancer, but it is crucially important in case of a cosmetic surgery which has never been compared to conservative treatment. Shame on all plastic surgeons who sell dangerous surgeries to women with body image issues to make them look like Angelina Jolie or Barbie doll or whoever. But for a castration shame is not enough; not even jail would be.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I cannot teach learners to use pronouns according to mental state of a human in a picture in front of them.
    It's not about their "mental state"; it's about their authentic reality. And yes, you absolutely can teach learners to use pronouns this way.
    Language describes speaker's perception of reality
    If your perception of me does not match my reality and you use language according to your perception and not my reality, then you are misrepresenting my reality. This is not an acceptable use of language. If I perceive you as Czech when you are Slovak, then me saying "siares is Czech" is a problematic use of language.
    pronouns are taught to be used as referring to the perceived sex.
    Traditionally, yes. This doesn't mean it's right. Things are changing and evolving.
    That includes genitals, which most of the time align with perceived sex.
    Whether or not people can guess what genitals you have is irrelevant.
    Genitals are vitally important.
    For some things they are, for other things they're not.
    No language fails to distinguish between biological sexes.
    I don't know if that's true or not, but even if it is, it's not relevant to what we're discussing here.
    I hope teachers here will not give advice which will make their students fail exams.
    That's not the point. The point is whether or not the answers students are expected to give on those exams are problematic. We should first make sure exams are testing the right things before checking whether teachers are appropriately preparing students for them.
    Do you mean 'Because sex is non-binary' or because gender is non-binary'?
    Both are non-binary.
    In any case, in such a system all identities are non-binary, including male and female.
    Ah, I see. You're conflating two different meanings/uses of the term "non-binary."

    When we say "Sex and gender are non-binary," we mean there are more than two categories.
    When we say "So-and-so identifies as non-binary," we mean that their gender identity is not one of the two that are available under a strictly binary system.
    Mentally unbalanced or mentally ill people cannot give consent.
    This is true. What is not true is that all people with a non-traditional gender identity are mentally unbalanced or ill.
    it is crucially important in case of a cosmetic surgery which has never been compared to conservative treatment. Shame on all plastic surgeons who sell dangerous surgeries to women with body image issues to make them look like Angelina Jolie or Barbie doll or whoever. But for a castration shame is not enough; not even jail would be.
    The ethics of plastic surgery and other procedures, as well as your problematic descriptions of sex reassignment surgery as "castration" and "eunuch procedures," are very, very far beyond the confines of the topic of this thread, which is only about providing inclusive gender options that allow everybody to select or provide the gender they identify with.
     
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    siares

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    If I perceive you as Czech when you are Slovak, then me saying "siares is Czech" is a problematic use of language.
    I don't understand the use of 'problematic' here. If police is after me and they ask you what nationality I am and you think I am Czech, then the sentence is utterly normal.
    When we say "So-and-so identifies as non-binary," we mean that their gender identity is not one of the two that are available under a strictly binary system.
    Thanks. I wouldn't have guessed that it refers to binary system which is supposed not to exist.
    This is true. What is not true is that all people with a non-traditional gender identity are mentally unbalanced or ill.
    Gender dysphoria is still classified as mental illness.
    Do you think treatments for it other than surgery (any surgery is known to have profound placebo effect) are sufficiently studied for it? Do you think there are enough studies on detransitioners?
    The ethics of plastic surgery and other procedures, as well as your problematic descriptions of sex reassignment surgery as "castration" and "eunuch procedures,"
    Castration wasn't on the offer, but it is the surgeons who sell the surgery under the term 'eunuch procedure'.
    We should first make sure exams are testing the right things before checking whether teachers are appropriately preparing students for them.
    Definitely disagree. Teachers are hired to advance their students in their chosen course. (Here there was a test to get into a medical school with a typo in it. Hired tutors pointed out and advised students to memorize the incorrect answer, for a test so tough that one answer could make all the difference.)
    know that a very rigorous psychosocial evaluation is required of anyone seeking sex reassignment surgery/gender affirmation surgery.
    Sadly, no. There are videos of therapists who evaluate people in one to few sessions, often online; and videos of transitioners speaking of how fast they went through the process. You could try to read detransitioner's reddit.
    Moreover, children put on Lupron at 8 are set on course they can hardly get off. Their genitals, bones and other organs most likely including brains never develop right.
    (I met a trans-man who was a therapist himself as an adult after normal development and had 6 years of therapy before he transitioned. That was in a diluvial era 7 years ago. Incidentally, I happen to know quite a few therapists. They are not regulated in every state - I could put a note on the house and start working as one - and even those highly qualified are a very uneven bunch. They like money just like plastic surgeons do.)
    The ethics of plastic surgery and other procedures, as well as your problematic descriptions of sex reassignment surgery as "castration" and "eunuch procedures," are very, very far beyond the confines of the topic of this thread, which is only about providing inclusive gender options that allow everybody to select or provide the gender they identify with.
    I think people should be aware that providing inclusive gender options is entangled with a belief system which enables those surgeries.
     
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