moedertaalspreker (pronunciation)

inter1908

Senior Member
Zulu
Hi, I'd like to know whether the stress falls on MOE or on SPRE, and if there any rules of pronouncing compound words (when the first one should be stressed, when the second, etc.) Thanks in advance.
 
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  • AllegroModerato

    Senior Member
    Dutch (Netherlands)
    The first word in the composed word retains its natural stress. In this case, the stress falls on the first syllable: Moe-dertaalspreker.
     
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    inter1908

    Senior Member
    Zulu
    The first word in the composed word retains its natural stress.
    That's logic, why would that be different? :) The thing is that there are some compound words that don't have stress on the first part, but on the second. Sorry can't think of any at the moment, I'm too much asleep but I could've sworn I've seen some. If that's just me imagining things, and the compound words always have main stress on the first part, then just tell me please :)
     

    inter1908

    Senior Member
    Zulu
    There, I've got an example! We have words: Nederlands and Nedersaksisch.

    The first one has equal amount of not-reduced vowels on the both sides: Nederlands, the main stress is on NED.

    The second one has one non-reduced vowel in the first part, and two in the second - Nedersaksies (yeah spelled fonetically, on a purpose :)), and the main stress is on SAK.

    I think the enigma's solved :) Looks like it's the amount of not-reduced vowels that counts in determining where the main and where the secondary stress falls in the word, and when it's equal the stress falls on the first part.

    But then again, it's just me guessing :D
     
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    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    Compound words that have the stress on the second part are in fact not so rare, for instance all words that start with "boeren-".
    :confused:
    Here we pronounce them with the stress on the first part; I also looked it up in van Dale, and there they also put the stress on the first part in all those compound words starting with "boeren-".
     

    AllegroModerato

    Senior Member
    Dutch (Netherlands)
    :confused:
    Here we pronounce them with the stress on the first part; I also looked it up in van Dale, and there they also put the stress on the first part in all those compound words starting with "boeren-".
    That´s strange. In Holland we do put the stress on the second part, and I don´t think I have ever heard anyone say "bóérenlul" or "bóérenwijsheid" over here.
     

    Lingvamanto

    New Member
    Dutch
    :confused:Here we pronounce them with the stress on the first part; I also looked it up in van Dale, and there they also put the stress on the first part in all those compound words starting with "boeren-".
    That's interesting. I have just checked Van Dale (1961 edition) and it puts the stress indeed on the first part of some words that starts with "boeren-" (e.g. boerenbedrijf, boerenkost), but others have the stress on the second part (e.g. boerendochter, boerenkool). There seems to be no obvious rule to determine the position of the stress in these compounds.
     

    AllegroModerato

    Senior Member
    Dutch (Netherlands)
    I can´t think of any compound word starting with boeren- I would pronounce with the stress on the first part, despite of what Van Dale says. So, for me it´s boerenbedrijf and boerenkost. For what it´s worth, the site "woorden.org" seems to agree with me. I´m interested in hearing more opinions on this subject.
     

    inter1908

    Senior Member
    Zulu
    Nice input! I wasn't aware there are regional differences in accenting, but I don't hear much people from Belgium, nor have I ever been to the Dutch speaking part of this country. And Eredivisie Live seems to employ mostly northeners too. But that's OT.

    AllegroModerato, I've checked on woorden.org all of the words that start with boeren-, and they say that boerenbedrog, boerenbond, boerenbont and boerenbruin have their main stress on boer. The rest has like you say, stress on the second part of the compound. There is my theory about vowels, blown up to pieces :) Seems like it's one of the hardest things in learning the Dutch accent, once you master all the sounds.

    Thanks for the answers once again!
     
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    AllegroModerato

    Senior Member
    Dutch (Netherlands)
    AllegroModerato, I've checked on woorden.org all of the words that start with boeren-, and they say that boerenbedrog, boerenbond, boerenbont and boerenbruin have their main stress on boer.
    You´re right. I overlooked that. Then my advise for the Dutch context would be: Please disregard all the mentioned sources and pronounce all of those "boeren-" words in the way I indicated before. Pronouncing them otherwise would sound completely unnatural over here.
     

    Lingvamanto

    New Member
    Dutch
    I have checked "Uitspraakwoordenboek" by Heemskerk and Zonneveld (which is supposed to cover both the Northern and Southern variants of Standard Dutch) regarding the compounds starting with "boeren-". It lists 49 of them, and 13 are stressed on the first part. There seems to be no general rule for determining the position of the stress. We have for example "boerenbónt" and "bóérenbond", which are pronounced identically, except for the stress (which might actually, be the reason for them being stressed differently).As for myself, being a native speaker of Northern Dutch, I certainly stress the second part of those words that are listed as having the stress there. I am not entirely sure of the others, but I probably put the stress on the second part there as well.
     

    LeRenardReynaerde

    Senior Member
    Dutch - The Netherlands
    That's interesting. I have just checked Van Dale (1961 edition) and it puts the stress indeed on the first part of some words that starts with "boeren-" (e.g. boerenbedrijf, boerenkost), but others have the stress on the second part (e.g. boerendochter, boerenkool). There seems to be no obvious rule to determine the position of the stress in these compounds.
    I wouldn't rely on an dictionary from 1961 too much. Of course, if you're just learning Dutch all help is welcome, but spelling has changed a couple of times since then. For the pronunciation I'm not sure it will make that much of a difference, but it is possible. Regard this as a general warning that dictionaries don't always know better. ;)
     

    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    I wouldn't rely on an dictionary from 1961 too much. Of course, if you're just learning Dutch all help is welcome, but spelling has changed a couple of times since then. For the pronunciation I'm not sure it will make that much of a difference, but it is possible. Regard this as a general warning that dictionaries don't always know better. ;)
    I'm not a dictionary, so you can trust me:D. Believe me, certainly in Belgium, many of the "boeren-" words are pronounced with the stress on "boer", just like Van Dale indicates.
     

    LeRenardReynaerde

    Senior Member
    Dutch - The Netherlands
    I'm not a dictionary, so you can trust me:D. Believe me, certainly in Belgium, many of the "boeren-" words are pronounced with the stress on "boer", just like Van Dale indicates.
    That's what I was trying to say: Learners of Dutch better believe 'us' than an out-dated dictionary. ;)
     

    Joannes

    Senior Member
    Belgian Dutch
    I'm not a dictionary, so you can trust me:D. Believe me, certainly in Belgium, many of the "boeren-" words are pronounced with the stress on "boer", just like Van Dale indicates.
    I agreed at first, with the exceptions of boerenlul and boerenkost, where I would stress the second part. I thought this could be explained by a difference in meaning:

    * boeren just as first part of a regular compound meaning 'pertaining to farmers' (as in de boerenbond, het boerenleven, boerenvolk) would get stress (as is generally the case for compounds)

    * boeren with a sense which is not really pertaining to farmers but rather to the connotations of strength, size, roughness, bluntness, lack of education, the idea of an "uit de kluiten gewassen, gestampte boer" (pardon my Dutch) would leave the stress to the second part, the part it qualifies
    Examples:
    boerenlul, boerenkost, boerenpummel, boerentrien, boerenstulp

    I thought I had resolved it and was ready to propose a new spelling <boere-> for compounds with the second meaning, in line with other compounds where the first part has lost its original meaning and just qualifies the second part: apetrots, reuzegoed, klotefilm, etc. :D
    (cf. http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/1205)

    BUT then I had a quick look at woordenlijst.org to look for a few examples with boeren- and turns out there are quite a few words where I would put the stress on the second part although the second, derived and rather connotational meaning does not need to be implied. Boerendóchter, boerenjóngen. Often I have doubts -- am I choosing between meanings? Or is the matter (even) more complicated?

    Peterdg, how do you pronounce the words mentioned and the following?
    boerenbrood
    boerenverstand
    boerenstiel
    boerenwoning
    boerenwagen
    boerenkool
    boerenfamilie
    boerenknecht
    boerenhoeve
    etc.
     

    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    boerenlul, boerenpummel, boerentrien, boerendochter, boerenjongen, boerenknecht definitely with the stress on the last part.
    boerenkool; I can imagine it with the stress on the last part but it's not part of my ideolect: here we say groenekool or savooi(kool).

    All the others with the stress on "boer".

    (also klotefilm)
     

    HKK

    Senior Member
    Dutch/Belgium
    There's also the example of streets and squares named after places. In Leuven, we have: Tiensestraat, Diestsesteenweg, Naamsepoort​, with the stress on the second part.
     
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