More than <were> expected

Peter Thompson

Peter Thompson

Banned
Malaysian
Hi! I would like to ask a question.
1. "More people came than were expected last night"
2. "The people came last night as were expected"

Here, it's the people that were expected, so, are the sentences above grammatically correct ?

Many Thanks!
 
    • The Newt said:
    If I understand your question, we'd have to say "more people came than were expected," not "more people came than was expected."
    Click to expand...
    If my focus is on the number of people that was expected to come last night.
    Is using "more than was expected" correct in this case ?
    More people came than was expected

    Because "the number of people" is singular therefore it requires "was". But when it comes to "more than", is the sentence in bold grammartically correct above ?

     
    Peter Thompson said:
    If my focus is on the number of people that was expected to come last night.
    Is using "more than was expected" correct in this case ?
    More people came than was expected

    Because "the number of people" is singular therefore it requires "was". But when it comes to "more than", is the sentence in bold grammartically correct above ?
    Click to expand...
    If you don't use the words "the number" you have to use the plural.

    More people came than was expected. :cross:
    More people came than were expected. :tick:
    The number of people who came was greater than expected. :tick:
     
    Because you have 'more' on its own and it takes a singular verb - more means a great amount of something abstract. You have the same thing with 'all' when it means the whole amount of something:
    All I want is you.
     
    boozer said:
    Because you have 'more' on its own and it takes a singular verb - more means a great amount of something abstract. You have the same thing with 'all' when it means the whole amount of something:
    All I want is you.
    Click to expand...
    But, there is this explanation from : All Is or All Are: Which Is Correct?

    When “all” represents a single group, it’s appropriate to say “all is welcome.” However, it’s much more common to hear “all” in the plural form, meaning you are more likely to say, “all are welcome.

    In sum, it's correct to say "all are welcome" when it refers to individuals and it's correct to say "all is welcome" when it refers to a single group.
    Therefore, I'm confused why it's : "We don’t want to do more than is necessary." instead of "more than are necessary".
     
    "We don’t want to do more than are necessary" begs the question "More of what?!?"

    That is because if you perceive it as as a plural noun, 'more' has to stand for something you are thinking of. And that something has to be countable too...

    If it was "We don’t want to make more than are necessary" one could easily imagine 'more' referring to some noun like mistakes, tricks, errors, pancakes, etc. But with 'do' - no, it is puzzling.
     
    Note that their are situations in which "number of people were" can be correct: "A number of people were disappointed." Here the emphasis is not on counting people, but on their separate impressions.
     
    The Newt said:
    Note that their are situations in which "number of people were" can be correct: "A number of people were disappointed." Here the emphasis is not on counting people, but on their separate impressions.
    Click to expand...
    Thank you!

    What do you think of this sentence ? : "We don’t want to do more than is necessary."

    Why is it "more than is necessary" rather than "more than are necessary" ? Because you say that it's incorrect to use "more than was expected" in "More people came than were eexpected". Therefore, I'm curious why it's "more than is necessary".
    Thank you!

    boozer said:
    "We don’t want to do more than are necessary" begs the question "More of what?!?"

    That is because if you perceive it as as a plural noun, 'more' has to stand for something you are thinking of. And that something has to be countable too...

    If it was "We don’t want to make more than are necessary" one could easily imagine 'more' referring to some noun like mistakes, tricks, errors, pancakes, etc. But with 'do' - no, it is puzzling.
    Click to expand...
    🙏
     
    Peter Thompson said:
    Thank you!

    What do you think of this sentence ? : "We don’t want to do more than is necessary."

    Why is it "more than is necessary" rather than "more than are necessary" ? [...]
    Click to expand...
    What are the plural items that would be the subject of that verb?

    There are certain situations in which "We don't want to [verb] more than are necessary" is conceivable. For example:

    We need to fill two hundred jars with beans. We have three hundred empty jars, and we probably have enough beans to fill them all, but we should stop when we have filled two hundred. We don't want to fill more than are necessary.

    "Is necessary" would also be possible there, because we could think of it as referring to the task rather than the bottles.
     
    The Newt said:
    What are the plural items that would be the subject of that verb?

    There are certain situations in which "We don't want to [verb] more than are necessary" is conceivable. For example:

    We need to fill two hundred jars with beans. We have three hundred empty jars, and we probably have enough beans to fill them all, but we should stop when we have filled two hundred. We don't want to fill more than are necessary.

    "Is necessary" would also be possible there, because we could think of it as referring to the task rather than the bottles.
    Click to expand...
    Thank you!

    Does this also apply to "as were expected" ?
    Is it grammatically correct to say "The girls came last night as were expected" ?
     
    Peter Thompson said:
    Thank you!

    Does this also apply to "as were expected" ?
    Is it grammatically correct to say "The girls came last night as were expected" ?
    Click to expand...
    No, because the verb there doesn't refer to the girls but to the situation: "As was expected [to be the case], the girls came last night." Are you thinking of "As many girls came last night as were expected"?
     
    The Newt said:
    No, because the verb there doesn't refer to the girls but to the situation: "As was expected [to be the case], the girls came last night." Are you thinking of "As many girls came last night as were expected"?
    Click to expand...
    If it can refer to the situation, can we not also say "More people came than was expected" for "was" to refer to the situation ?
     
    Peter Thompson said:
    If it can refer to the situation, can we not also say "More people came than was expected" for "was" to refer to the situation ?
    Click to expand...
    Now this is really a good question.

    I would say, in theory, yes. However, it is very borderline. Somehow, I would expect 'were'. When you hear 'was' it takes a split second to parse it as referring to the situation. In that split second your listener is confused.
     
    Hi! I am back with a new question!

    The Newt said:
    We need to fill two hundred jars with beans. We have three hundred empty jars, and we probably have enough beans to fill them all, but we should stop when we have filled two hundred. We don't want to fill more than are necessary.

    "Is necessary" would also be possible there, because we could think of it as referring to the task rather than the bottles.
    Click to expand...
    Here, you say that it's possible to use "More than is necessary" to refer to the task, but why do you say that saying "More people came than was expected" is incorrect to refer to the number of people ? And with the number of people, we can use "was".
    And here is what you say :
    The Newt said:
    If you don't use the words "the number" you have to use the plural.

    More people came than was expected. :cross:
    More people came than were expected. :tick:
    The number of people who came was greater than expected. :tick:
    Click to expand...


    So, if we can use "More than is necessary" to refer to the task rather than to the bottles in #14, then why can't we use "More people came than was expected" to refer to the number of people ? Because with the number of people, we can use "was".
     
    Hi! I would like to ask a question.
    Is it correct to say : "More people came than was expected last night" and use "was expected" to refer to the number of people rather than the people themselves ? Because it's correct to say : "More people came than were expected last night" and use "were expected" to refer to the people. So, I am wondering if it's also correct to use "was expected" to refer to the number of people.


    Many Thanks!
     
    Peter Thompson said:
    Hi! I would like to ask a question.
    Is it correct to say : "More people came than was expected last night" and use "was expected" to refer to the number of people rather than the people themselves ? Because it's correct to say : "More people came than were expected last night" and use "were expected" to refer to the people. So, I am wondering if it's also correct to use "was expected" to refer to the number of people.


    Many Thanks!
    Click to expand...

    No, because 'people' is plural.

    We thought that 60 people would come to the lecture, but 75 people came. More people came than were expected. [plural subject, plural verb]
    We thought that 60 people would come to the lecture, but 75 people came. A greater number/a larger group came than was expected. [singular subject, singular verb]
     
    I'm with boozer, I think: I'd say that More people came than was expected is possible. I see two possible 'transformations':

    It was expected that 20 people would come. >> More people came than was expected.
    20 people were expected to come. >> More people came than were expected.
     
    Peter Thompson said:
    Is it correct to say : "More people came than was expected last night" and use "was expected" to refer to the number of people rather than the people themselves ? Because it's correct to say : "More people came than were expected last night" and use "were expected" to refer to the people. So, I am wondering if it's also correct to use "was expected" to refer to the number of people.
    Click to expand...
    'was expected' is perfectly ok. It refers to the expectation, not the people, as Loob says. The fact reported by both versions is the same, but there is a difference of focus.
     
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