MSA/All dialects: to jinx

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Ghabi, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. Ghabi

    Ghabi AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    For example, my friend keeps telling me: "you'll ace your test, I'm sure you will!" Then I say: "Are you trying to jinx me or what?" How do we say that in fuS7a or colloquial?:confused:
     
  2. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Hal sataHsiduni?هل ستحسدني
     
  3. Bântuit

    Bântuit Senior Member

    باش تضربني بعين
     
  4. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    بالفصحى:

    تريد/أتريد أن تحسدني؟
    تريد أن تصيبني بعيْن/بالعيْن؟ <-- there is probably a single verb that expresses this idea, but I don't know it unfortunately

    بلهجتنا:

    تبي تنظلني؟
    تبي تعطيني عين؟

    More colorful versions: :D
    تبي تصكّني بعين؟
    تبي تصقعني بعين؟
     
  5. Ghabi

    Ghabi AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    Do you also use niDal as suggested by Wadi in badawi?:D

    Bravo:thumbsup:, but is there any one-word verb for the idea in Tunisian?

    You can use صقع to mean "to beat"?:confused: Do you also use the verb fawwil in Nejdi? (which seems to be the Egyptian equivalent of niDal, but I'm not sure, need our Egyptian friends to confirm)
     
  6. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    Yes صقع can mean "hit" or "strike." It can also mean to "crash into" something (similar to صدم/اصطدم).

    صقعته كفّ ("I slapped him in the face")
    صقعته سيارة ("a car hit him")
    صقعت بسيارتي ("I crashed my car")
    صقعت الكورة في العارضة ("The ball hit the cross-bar")
    انصقعنا بخمسة ("we got thrashed 5-0")

    فاول, تفاول, etc. is not exactly the same as نظل or عطاه عين.

    فاول means when you mention something bad happening in the future, the other person will fear that it may come true and will say لا تفاول or لا تتفاول (it's almost the exact opposite of يتفاءل in MSA even though it's the same word).

    I know that's not very clear, so I'll just give a couple of examples:

    You just bought a brand new BMW. Your friend sees it and says: وش هالسيارة الحلوة؟. Here, you'll be afraid that he's given you the evil eye and you'll say: لا تنظلني! قل ما شا الله!.

    Now suppose you notice a spot on your friend's skin. You tell him: يبيلك تشوف دكتور يمكن تتحول لسرطان ("you should see a doctor; it could turn into cancer"). Here the superstition is that the cancer will come true, so you say: بسم الله عليّ لا تتفاول.

    You can also فاول yourself. So, you tell your friend حاس إن فيني مرض خطير. He'll answer you by saying, اذكر الله لا تفاول/تتفاول على عمرك.
     
  7. Ghabi

    Ghabi AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    Wow, so much from you!:thumbsup:

    Kinda reminds me of the English "auspicious", which etymologically is not necessarily something good. So perhaps the original meaning of the Arabic verb is simply "to tell fortune (whether good or bad)".

    It's interesting, because I think we can use "to jinx" to translate both words (which seems to include the meanings of both "to tempt fate" and "to curse", right? I'm not sure).
     
  8. Bântuit

    Bântuit Senior Member

    you could say :! باش تنحسني



    Grammatically
    :you will jinx me

    :)

     
  9. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    That is in fact the case, though even in olden times, it was more common to connote good fortune.

    From the Lisaan:

    الفأْل: ضد الطِّيَرَة، والجمع فُؤول، وقال الجوهري: الجمع أَفْؤُل، وأَنشد للكميت: ولا أَسْأَلُ الطَّيرَ عما تقول، ولا تَتَخالَجُني الأَفْؤُل وتَفاءلْت به وتفأْل به؛ قال ابن الأَثير: يقال تَفاءلْت بكذا وتفأْلت، على التخفيف والقلْب، قال: وقد أُولع الناس بترك همزه تخفيفاً.
    والفَأْل أَن يكون الرجل مريضاً فيسمع آخر يقول يا سالِمُ، أَو يكون طالِبَ ضالَّة فيسمع آخر يقول يا واجِد، فيقول: تَفاءلْت بكذا، ويتوجه له في ظنِّه كما سمع أَنه يبرأُ من مرضه أَو يجد ضالَّته.
    وفي الحديث: أَنه، صلى الله عليه وسلم، كان يحبُّ الفَأْل ويكره الطِّيَرَة؛ والطِّيَرَة: ضد الفَأْل، وهي فيما يكره كالفَأْل فيما يستحَب، والطِّيرَة لا تكون إِلا فيما يسوء، والفَأْل يكون فيما يحسُن وفيما يسوء. قال أَبو منصور: من العرب من يجعل الفَأْل فيما يكرَه أَيضاً، قال أَبو زيد: تَفاءَلْت تَفاؤُلاً، وذلك أَن تسمع الإِنسان وأَنت تريد الحاجة يدعو يا سعيد يا أَفْلَح أَو يدعو باسم قبيح، والاسم الفَأْل، مهموز، وفي نوادر الأَعراب: يقال لا فَأْل عليك بمعنى لا ضَيْر عليك ولا طَيْر عليك ولا شر عليك، وفي الحديث عن أَنس عن النبي، صلى الله عليه وسلم، قال: لا عَدْوى ولا طِيَرَة ويعجبُني الفَأْل الصالِح، والفأْل الصالح: الكلمة الحسنة؛ قال: وهذا يدل على أَن من الفَأْل ما يكون صالحاً ومنه ما يكون غير صالح
     
  10. azeid Senior Member

    Egypt مصر
    العربية
    Egyptian:
    إنت بِتْقُر علىَّ و لا إيه؟
     
  11. Ghabi

    Ghabi AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    Can't get it. What's this verb?:confused:
     
  12. azeid Senior Member

    Egypt مصر
    العربية
    لا أستطيع الزعم بأن هذا الفعل لا يستخدم بهذا المعنى فى اللهجات المحلية الأخرى غير المصرية و هذا يحتاج لنفى أو تأكيد من الإخوة الناطقين باللهجات الأخرى.
    هذا الفعل قَر - يقُر - قُر و هو بمعنى الحسد و لا شك أن كلمة "الحسد" شائعة فى اللهجة المصرية و لكن كلمة القر ربما تكون شائعة فى اللهجة المصرية دون غيرها و لهذا ذكرتها دون كلمة الحسد
    لم أستطع إيجاد رابط بين الإستخدام الحالى لها فى اللهجة المصرية و بين المعانى الواردة فى استخدامها فى مراجع العربية و معاجمها و ربما كان المعنى بلاغياً مجازياً و لكنى لا أستطيع الربط بينهما أيضاً غير أن المعنى الوارد هو صب الماء فى فى أذن الأبكم و يمكن أيضاً أن نقول يوم القَر و هو اليوم التالى ليوم النحر أما القُر بضم القاف فتعنى شدة البرد و الله أعلم
     
  13. Ghabi

    Ghabi AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese

    Thanks for the explanation.:thumbsup: So do you also use the word fawwil in Egypt as explained by Wadi above?
    What does it mean?:confused:
     
  14. Anatoli Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    I found نحس (naHasa) or جلب النحس (jalaba an-naHs(-an)) in MSA (must have an alif with fatHa tanwiin) actually نحساً?)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2009
  15. ashraf_gawdat Member

    Cairo - Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt)
    The verb fawwil is used in Egypt exactly as Wadi Hanifa mentioned.

    The verb y'or (يقر) (notice that qaf ق in Egyptian slang is pronounced hamza ء), this verb is used in Egypt colloquial in the meaning you want, just as azeid mentioned. There is another verb with the same meaning - also in Egypt colloquial - which is Yno' (ينق).

    So if we write the phrase in Egypt colloquial it will be
    انت هتقر عليّ ولا إيه؟ Enta hat'or 'alaiia walla 'eh?
    or
    انت هتنق عليّ ولا إيه؟ Enta hatno' 'alaiia walla 'eh?
     
  16. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Yes, Ghabi, we do use it so far.
    تبي تنضلني
    and we sometimes use the word"bandiq"to mean"hit me with an evil eye"so to speak.
    تبي تبندق علي؟ are you shooting me(with an eye):p
     
  17. ashraf_gawdat Member

    Cairo - Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt)
    You can use another approach to get the same meaning, also in Egypt colloquial. You can say khamsa we khmesa (خمسة وخميسة). This is usually said with an action with the hand, which is pointing with the whole open hand to the face of whom you are talking to, to express the number 5 khamsa (خمسة).

    The origin of this is that there is a belief that number five is used to avoid envy or grudge. Of course no one believes in that today, but the expression and the symbol (five fingers) are still used in a funny way.
     
  18. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    This is much stronger than na22 and fawwel. na7s is bad luck, جلب النحس means: he brought bad luck. It takes a tanwiin if/when it's infinitive.
     
  19. Ghabi

    Ghabi AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod

    Hong Kong
    Cantonese
    Bantuit has beaten you to that (see Post #8), Anatoli (oops, I forgot to thank you, Bantuit:)). But I'm not sure if this word has the "evil eye" meaning, or simply "bad luck". To Anatoli: it's definite, so it has no tanwiin (is that what you mean?).

    Thanks for the confirmation and new information! And please accept my belated "Welcome to the Forum" greeting!:D

    It's very interesting that you use the "rifle" word as a verb!:eek:

    Yup, I've heard Cherine talk about this in this thread (Post #6).

    Edit: just saw Cherine's post; عمرك اطول من عمري!;)
     
  20. Anatoli Senior Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    Thanks for correcting me, Ghabi and Cherine. The verb simply means "bring bad luck/misfortune", "make unhappy". I checked 3 sources for the translation, including Hans Wehr. The online dictionaries translate it as "to jinx".
     
  21. elroy

    elroy Sharp-heeled Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Palestinian: بدك تنحسني؟
     
  22. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    In Egypt as azeid said إنت بتقر عليا ولا إيه
    But I don't use this word
    A lot of people say إنت هتحسدني؟

    Few people would say : خمسة وخميسة:D
     

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