mutria, mutră, μούτρο, मुद्रा

A

Apollodorus

Senior Member
English UK
mutria (It.), mutră (Ro.), μούτρο (Gr.), मुद्रा (Hi.)

Possible derivations seem to be:

Italian mutria, “expression” < Greek μούτρο: mutria - Wiktionary

Greek μούτρο (moutro), “face” < Italian mutria: μούτρο - Wiktionary

Romanian mutră, “face, expression” < Greek μούτρο: mutră - Wiktionary

Are there any similar words in other languages and could any of them be related to Hindi मुद्रा (mudrā), “expression, face” and a Proto-Iranian *mudrā? मुद्रा - Wiktionary
 
    • m+u - locked/retain + inside,

    muthirai, mutra - seals that are impressed to give expressions.
    mudh-this refers the action of pressing two objects.

    in Tamil Muttham=kiss
     
    Please note the Romanian mutră is a relatively recent borrowing from Modern Greek (probably during XVIII century when the Phanariots ruled Wallachia and Moldavia). It has a pejorativ conotation and is used in slang by low educated people. Such word is not expected in an academical or political speech.
    (details in Romanian: mutră - DEX online - see the line:
    MÚTRĂ, mutre, s. f. (Familiar, uneori peiorativ) )
    With my comments I want to emphasize this loanword in Romanian does not bring much to the inquiry you are doing on the history of this word.
     
    danielstan said:
    Please note the Romanian mutră is a relatively recent borrowing from Modern Greek (probably during XVIII century when the Phanariots ruled Wallachia and Moldavia). It has a pejorativ conotation and is used in slang by low educated people. Such word is not expected in an academical or political speech.
    (details in Romanian: mutră - DEX online - see the line:
    MÚTRĂ, mutre, s. f. (Familiar, uneori peiorativ) )
    With my comments I want to emphasize this loanword in Romanian does not bring much to the inquiry you are doing on the history of this word.
    Click to expand...
    Well, I for one tend to think that "low educated people" are still people. In the period under consideration, they probably made up the majority. And the supposed "use in slang" or "pejorative connotation" is immaterial.

    The "relatively recent borrowing" into Romanian may be a factor, but it doesn't change much about the Greek derivation in Romanian.
     
    aruniyan said:
    m+u - locked/retain + inside,

    muthirai, mutra - seals that are impressed to give expressions.
    mudh-this refers the action of pressing two objects.

    in Tamil Muttham=kiss
    Click to expand...
    Unfortunately, I don't know much about Tamil. Is the Tamil term related to the Hindi/Sanskrit one?
     
    Apollodorus said:
    Greek μούτρο (moutro), “face” < Italian mutria: μούτρο - Wiktionary
    Click to expand...
    Actually, this is the etymology given by Prof. Babiniotis.

    μούτρο < Med. Greek μοῦτρον (plural μοῦτρα) < Italian mutria

    danielstan said:
    It has a pejorativ conotation and is used in slang by low educated people. Such word is not expected in an academical or political speech.
    Click to expand...
    In Greek it's also very colloquial, it usually has a pejorative connotation (more rarely it may also denote affection).
     
    The Iranian etymology listed for Hindi mudrā is for "seal" not "face". What Wikitionary says is that mudrā ("seal") is from Iranian *mudrā ("seal"). There is no meaning of "face" here to compare with the European words.

    So, we have some meanings in Hindi (not Sanskrit) which are related to face. This meaning could have been derived from "seal". Before looking for a possible relation to those European words, it is necessary to know its history in Hindi. Otherwise, we would be knowingly ignoring relevant and accessible data. Hopefully a native will shed some light.

    P.S. Wiki's proto-Iranian *mudrā may be too much. It's difficult to imagine it in an illiterate pastoral proto-Iranian society (it doesn't mean "brand" apparently to connect it to livestock). It would be safer to just say Iranian without proto. The idea of Akkadian origin is from the late 1800s (by Fritz Hommel). Is it still valid?
     
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    Apollodorus said:
    Are there any similar words in other languages and could any of them be related to Hindi मुद्रा (mudrā), “expression, face”
    Click to expand...
    Russian морда (mórda) "mug, face" (Slavic cognates also include the meaning "head"). *Morda looks like an Iranian loanword in proto-Slavic. However, it's (indirectly) connected to Sanskrit मूर्धन् (mūrdhán) "(fore)head" rather than to मुद्रा ("image, expression"; the meaning "face" seems secondary here).
     
    Perseas said:
    Actually, this is the etymology given by Prof. Babiniotis.

    μούτρο < Med. Greek μοῦτρον (plural μοῦτρα) < Italian mutria
    Click to expand...
    Correct. And Babiniotis also says that the origin of Italian mutria is “uncertain”.

    If Romanian borrowed the word from Greek in the 18th century, then Italian could equally have borrowed it from Greek around the same time if not even earlier, in which case we can rule out an Italian/Latin origin.
     
    Awwal12 said:
    *Morda looks like an Iranian loanword in proto-Slavic. However, it's (indirectly) connected to Sanskrit मूर्धन् (mūrdhán) "(fore)head" rather than to मुद्रा ("image, expression"; the meaning "face" seems secondary here).
    Click to expand...
    To my ears even Greek moutra has a certain Iranian ring to it - or even Slavic. I may be wrong, but there could be a connection somewhere.
     
    Sanskrit mudrā is probably an ancient borrowing from Old Persian *muδrakā- < *muδra- “seal”, literally “the Egyptian thing” (i.e., the Egyptian-type signet ring, as opposed to the Babylonian-type cylinder seal) < Akkadian Muzur “Egypt”, with the specifically Old Persian shift of z > δ. Continued by Middle Persian muhr and Bactrian μολρογο, μολραγο, (later: μοδδρογο, μοδδραγο,) “sealed document”.
     
    Interestingly, Greek also has μούρη moúri, “mug, face”, which – according to Babiniotis and Wiktionary – is from Italian murri (plural of murro, “wall?”). Unfortunately, the etymology isn’t entirely clear.

    And Romanian has muie, “mug, face” < Romani mui which also seems to occur in Caló (Spanish-Portuguese Romani). Could Romani be a link between Iranian and Greek or between Greek and other European languages?
     
    Apollodorus said:
    And Romanian has muie, “mug, face” < Romani mui which also seems to occur in Caló (Spanish-Portuguese Romani). Could Romani be a link between Iranian and Greek or between Greek and other European languages?
    Click to expand...
    The Romanian muie does not mean "mug, face", but one of its meanings is "mouth" (Romanian gură ). The most used meaning of this word has sexual connotation (oral sex), obviously derived from "mouth":
    DEXonline - muie

    As a side note, muie is frequently used in cursing (a perfect equivalent of the middle finger sign), spelled on walls (grafitti) in Romania in offensive texts (example: Bucuresti: capitala mondiala a sexului oral. - cabral.ro) - I hope I made myself clear on its nature.

    I don't see a connection to Greek Greek μούτρο (moutro).
     
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    danielstan said:
    The Romanian muie does not mean "mug, face", but one of its meanings is "mouth" (Romanian gură ). The most used meaning of this word has sexual connotation (oral sex), obviously derived from "mouth":
    DEXonline - muie

    As a side note, muie is frequently used in cursing (a perfect equivalent of the middle finger sign), spelled on walls (grafitti) in Romania in offensive texts (example: Bucuresti: capitala mondiala a sexului oral. - cabral.ro) - I hope I made myself clear on its nature.

    I don't see a connection to Greek Greek μούτρο (moutro).
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, I didn’t actually think muie had a direct connection to Greek moutra (though it may be connected with mouri). I just noticed that some Romani numerals, e.g., ifta, “seven”, oxto, “eight”, inja, “nine” are borrowed from Byzantine Greek and I was wondering if Romani could have served as a link between Iranian and Greek and between Greek and Romanian or other European languages.

    Incidentally, DEX also has an entry for Romanian moacă, “head” which sounds similar to Hindi मुख mukh, “mouth, face”, though it doesn’t give any etymology so, I’m assuming the similarity is just coincidence.

    But thanks for the info, anyway. Very interesting … 😀
     
    Perseas said:
    "murro, pl. murri" is a dialectal form:
    [μσν. μούρη < ιταλ. (διαλεκτ.) αρσ. murro `μουσούδι΄, πληθ. murri που θεωρήθηκε θηλ. εν.· μούρ(η) -άκλα]
    Click to expand...
    Any idea what dialect it was?
     
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