my heart my soul my daughter.

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by Tattoodan, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. Tattoodan Member

    Good morning all

    i am looking to find the Latin translation of the following;

    my heart my soul my daughter.

    It is for a tattoo for myself so I want to ensure I get it right.

    Many thanks
  2. bibax Senior Member

    Czech (Prague)
    cor meum anima mea filia mea

    · ANIMA MEA · FILIA MEA     (in upper case)
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  3. Tattoodan Member

    Hi thanks.

    How come it "meum" has a U in it in lower case but a V in upper case?

  4. bibax Senior Member

    Czech (Prague)
    1) The ancient Romans used (knew) only the capital letters ABCD....TVXYZ, no U,J,W.

    2) In the past (Middle Ages) it was customary to use the capital letter (majuscule) V and the minuscule u in the manuscripts, for example Vniuersus (now written Universus).

    Thus it is still customary (but not obligatory) to use the majuscule V in the inscriptions written in upper case.

    Note: the term lower/upper case came with the mechanical typewriters along with the Shift key.
  5. jrundin Senior Member

    USA, English
    The Romans had only capital letters (or, as I will call them, "majuscule" letters); there were no lower case letters (or, as I will call them, "minuscule" letters); they were developed much later as a variant way of writing the alphabet. SO THE ROMANS WROTE EVERYTHING IN MAJUSCULE LETTERS. In the Roman alphabet, there was only one letter, "V." It was used as a vowel with the sound, more or less, of English "u" and as a consonant with the sound of English "w." When minuscule letters were developed, this letter took the form "u." So "u" was originally the minuscule version of the majuscule "V."

    Through a complex development, minuscule "u" developed two forms, "u" and "v." Eventually, "v" came to be written for this letter's use a consonant and "u" for its use as a vowel; while only the form "V" was used for majuscule letters. Eventually, a second majuscule developed, "U," and now there are two letters ("U," "u" and "V," "v")—one for vowel sounds, one for consonant sounds—where originally there was only one. There are different conventions nowadays how to write Latin using these two letters. Probably the most fashionable one is to write the majuscule "V" and the miniscule "u." And that's the convention used by Bibax here. I will say that Latin looks odd to me when it is written with the "new" majuscule "U" instead of "V."

    By the way, Bibax also used raised dots, called interpuncts, to separate elements of the phrase. That's a nice touch. You can google
    "interpunct" to find out more about them.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  6. Tattoodan Member

    Thanks both of you.

    So if I were to have it tattooed do you suggest it as;


  7. bibax Senior Member

    Czech (Prague)
    IMHO, "COR MEVM · ANIMA MEA · FILIA MEA" is correct (with the "cool" Latin capital letter V).

    Albeit my suggestion always will be "Think twice, cut once!". ;)
  8. CapnPrep Senior Member

    As I pointed out in passing in another thread, while it is true that the Romans were case-insensitive :D, and that for monumental writing they used letter forms that look pretty much exactly like today's uppercase letters, it is a mistake to believe that all Roman writing looked like this, and that what we know today as lowercase letter forms were completely absent in ancient times. This wax tablet from Pompeii is a rare surviving example of everyday handwriting, and it shows in particular how the letter in question looks at least as much like a ‹u› as it does a ‹V›.
  9. jrundin Senior Member

    USA, English
    That's a good point, CapnPrep, and a more accurate way of stating the situation. Thanks.

    Obviously, writing will vary from medium to medium, particularly in a situation where there
    is no printing and therefore the letters have less stable forms.
    Before printing, the forms of letters vary from place to place and time to time rather like
    dialects of written language. Moreover, what works (very straight lines, for instance) when one
    is chiseling inscriptions will not necessarily work when one is using a stylus to scratch wax.
    Generally, I think changes in media are major causes for changes in letter forms.
  10. Tattoodan Member

    Hi, thanks so much for your responses, so is the consensus-

    (my heart my soul my daughter)

    I also wondered if this is how her D.O.B would be in roman numerals and spaced out like so? I am from England so we do it DD-MM-YYYY.
    XVI X MMXI (daughter’s D.O.B 16-10-2011)

  11. jrundin Senior Member

    USA, English
    Yes, that looks good to me.

    Myself, I would either use interpuncts or write it all together without spaces.




    But really, it's your choice. The way Bibax did it is fine.
    (By the way, interpuncts don't have to be dots; they can be triangles or even
    little florettes. They're worth googling to get an idea of the choices.)

    The Romans did dates differently from us, and the calendar has gone through changes,
    so it's hard to answer your question about the date of birth. There are several
    conventions depending on whether you want to use the old Roman system or the
    Gregorian system or some combination. I'd start by looking at
    to get a handle on the issues and decide what direction you want to go. Then I'd ask here again.
    If this is for a tattoo, you want to get it right.
  12. Tattoodan Member

    Hi thanks.

    But could i do the date in complete roman numerals as october is october in latin so defeats the object of having that as the tattoo.

    So id like XVI X MMXI rather than XVI October MMI.

    Would it make sense?

  13. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    The terms "upper" and "lower case" came in long before the invention of the typewriter. They refer to the boxes ("cases") in which hand-set type was stored on the compositor's desk.
  14. Tattoodan Member

    So to confirm upper case


    Lower case change V to U?

  15. bibax Senior Member

    Czech (Prague)

    You can see how the motto of the Commonwealth of England "Pax quæritur bello" is written on the Cromwell's coin 1656.


    Or UK coins before 1952: GEORGIVS VI (Georgius VI)


    Larger pictures of these (and many other) coins are available on Wikipædia.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  16. bibax Senior Member

    Czech (Prague)
    XVI X MMXI is quite incomprehensible. I should prefer XVI OCTOBRIS MMXI or XVI · OCT · MMXI etc.

  17. Tattoodan Member

    So if go lower case i change V to a u?
  18. jrundin Senior Member

    USA, English
    Lower case and upper case are a modern thing so they have less relevance to
    Latin, but, there are at least two modern conventions.

    1) The letter "V" is written as a "V" in upper case and as "u" in lower case.
    2) When it is a vowel write "u" and when it is a a consonant write "v."

    Personally, if I were doing this, I would forget all about upper and lower case
    and seek out a nice alphabet--perhaps an "uncial" one--and just use it.

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