myself included

moonglow

Banned
English – America
I believe that bolded sentences 3 and 4 below are grammatically correct; the first two are not. Agreed?

1. Some people are supremely intelligent, myself included.
2. Some people are supremely intelligent, including myself.
3. Some people are supremely intelligent, me included.
4. Some people are supremely intelligent, including me.

Thank you.
 
  • dadane

    Senior Member
    English (London/Essex)
    I can't imagine myself using anything other than 1 or 4, of which, I would consider 1 the more formal and academic version. Considering the context, it has to be 1.
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    The only one I find a bit out of the ordinary is 3. I would not be surprised to hear it, but I cannot say I like it. Well, I do not like it at all. :D
     

    expenseroso

    Senior Member
    United States, English
    #1 is very common although, I think, technically incorrect since it uses a reflexive pronoun without a proper antecedent (#2 does this as well). The others sound awkward. If I had to choose I would go with #4.
     

    Parla

    Member Emeritus
    English - US
    The only one I'd use is #4, because "myself" is properly reserved for emphasis or reflex. (I baked this pie myself, but I cut myself when I was slicing the applies.)
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    Hmm, how interesting. Looks as though all AE participants in this discussion are dead set against the reflexive pronoun. :) I think I remember seeing once a thread here which suggested reflexive pronouns are more popular in BE in such contexts...
     

    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    Something interesting:
    The -self pronouns, such as myself, yourselves, and herself, are sometimes used as emphatic substitutes for personal pronouns, as in Like yourself, I have no apologies to make. The practice is particularly common in compound phrases: Ms. Evans or yourself will have to pick them up at the airport. Although these usages have been common in the writing of reputable authors for several centuries, they may sound overwrought. A large majority of the Usage Panel disapproves of the use of -self pronouns when they do not refer to the subject of the sentence.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/myself
    More on that on the website.
     

    Wordsmyth

    Senior Member
    Native language: English (BrE)
    .
    It has to be 4 for me as well (and not "It has to be 4 for myself"!;)).
    Hmm, how interesting. Looks as though all AE participants in this discussion are dead set against the reflexive pronoun. :)
    And not just AE participants. I'm also dead set aginst the reflexive pronoun except when it's reflexive or emphatic. Ewie and Rover too, it seems.

    Even the emphatic use is normally only for contrast with other implicit possibilities. See Parla's example in #7, and others in this thread.

    Ws:)
     
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    ewie

    Senior Member
    English English
    .
    And not just AE participants. I'm also dead set against the reflexive pronoun except when it's reflexive or emphatic. Ewie [...] too, it seems.
    It's certainly in my Top 10 of Pet Hates, WS:thumbsup:

    John and myself had a meeting:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

    It's not the ungrammaticality of it: it's just because it's unnecessary and pompous:(
     

    JustKate

    Moderate Mod
    It's certainly in my Top 10 of Pet Hates, WS:thumbsup:

    John and myself had a meeting:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

    It's not because of the ungrammaticality of it: it's just because it's unnecessary and pompous:(
    Mine too. It should be used reflexively or, on rare occasions perhaps, for emphasis, but it seems to me that a lot of people who use it indiscriminately (and I'm not suggesting anybody here does this) do so because they think it sounds fancier and more formal - and they also seem to think it's a way to avoid having to choose between "I" or "me."

    The fear of poor pronoun selection is very strong among many native speakers. :)
     
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    Wordsmyth

    Senior Member
    Native language: English (BrE)
    It's certainly in my Top 10 of Pet Hates, WS:thumbsup:

    John and myself had a meeting:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

    It's not the ungrammaticality of it: it's just because it's unnecessary and pompous:(
    Both of those things indeed, and for me also a touch of the ungrammaticality: I hear it much as I would hear "Me had a meeting".:eek:

    Ws:)
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I may be partly guilty of leading this discussion astray, to the more general misuse of reflexive pronouns.

    I do not think this is the case here. Let's analyse those sentences.

    We have the past participle 'included' which requires a subject.
    1) myself included - going back to this dictionary definition [the wording] - my normal or customary self - and the word's roots, we see what we know already, namely that it consists of two words, my and self, and that it can easily be a subject. For some reason we do not say 'I included'. So we are left with 'myself included' and this is not a reflexive use of the word. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myself?s=t

    2) me included - this one is plain wrong as far as I am concerned. It uses an object pronoun (me) as a subject. Not an uncommon 'mistake' but quite unsightly here. :)

    We have the present participle 'including' which requires an object:
    3) including myself - yes, this is it, a 'subject' pronoun used as an object - the usual misuse, but certainly one that sounds to me a lot better than 2)

    4) including me - I agree, this one is probably the best
     

    Wordsmyth

    Senior Member
    Native language: English (BrE)
    .
    I'm having a problem getting my head round your analysis 1), boozer.

    First, the "my normal or customary self" definition relates to a vey specific and limited use of "self", where it means something like "the being that I am": my normal self, my inner self, ... I don't see it applying here.

    Secondly, a past participle on its own doesn't have a subject. In this case it's in the passive voice, and "Some people, ..., xxxx included" is a contraction of "Some people, amongst whom xxxx is included, ...". So ...

    - "Some people, ..., John included" is OK, because you can say "John is included".

    - Now ask yourself whether you would say "Myself is included" (or should that be "Myself am included"?!).
    — No? Then I'd say that rules out "myself included" in the sentence in question.

    Ws:)
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    .
    I'm having a problem getting my head round your analysis 1), boozer.

    First, the "my normal or customary self" definition relates to a vey specific and limited use of "self", where it means something like "the being that I am": my normal self, my inner self, ... I don't see it applying here.

    Secondly, a past participle on its own doesn't have a subject. In this case it's in the passive voice, and "Some people, ..., xxxx included" is a contraction of "Some people, amongst whom xxxx is included, ...". So ...

    - "Some people, ..., John included" is OK, because you can say "John is included".

    - Now ask yourself whether you would say "Myself is included" (or should that be "Myself am included"?!).
    — No? Then I'd say that rules out "myself included" in the sentence in question.

    Ws:)
    :)
    Yes, in itself the dictionary definition is irrelevant. It merely shows, I believe, that 'my self' as two separate words, might have a suitable meaning to act as a subject.

    Then, a past participle on its own does not have a subject. But that is exactly the point - we don't want it on its own and in 'John is included' we have a subject - 'John' :). Then we go 'My self is included' and just proceed and skip the verb 'is'. And no, I would not say 'My self is included' because nobody says it. But it is formally grammatical at least :) Maybe this kind of verb ellipsis survived and gained currency, unlike the more obvious 'I am included' --> 'I included' which is not used (because it makes 'included' look like a past-tense transitive verb left without its object). Whatever the case, 'myself included' is used and I find it justifiable.
     
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