Nationalities: Niemiec, Islandii and Norweg

[gvergara]

Hi,

I have been learning (or trying at least) some nationalities in Polish. And I have got two questions:

1. What is the plural nominative of Niemiec? If we go by the rule, it should be Niemce (as it is a noun ending in a soft consonant); however, the Polish Wiktionary indicates that Niemcy is the plural, which I feel is odd, as the country is also named like that. Odmiana.net lists both of them: Niemcy and Niemce, which is the correct one?
2. Where does the stress go in words the genitive of which ends in _ii, such as Islandii? Should it be IslAndii or IslandIi? I guess it all depends on whether or not the final _ii is considered as only one syllable or two different syllables.

Thanks in advance,

G.

 

[zaffy]

IslAndii

 

[zaffy]

What is the plural nominative of Niemiec?

It's Niemcy, at least for me. I would never say Niemce. What's more, it sounds odd to me.

Niemcy to duży kraj. (country)
Niemcy lubią piwo. (people)

 

[gvergara]

Thanks, zaffy, but you do pronounce both i's, do you not? Is-lAn-di-i

 

[zaffy]

but you do pronounce both i's,

You never pronounce two i's in Polish, that's why some native speakers make spelling mistakes as they don't know if there's one or two i's at the end in many words.

Koleżanka Anii. - you pronounce one /i/.

 

[gvergara]

You never pronounce two i's in Polish

Thanks, and does the answer change in presence of a final _ji, as is the case in the word Francji? J is not a vowel, so one might think that the j could be pronounced distinctly.

 

[Drakonica]

The declension patterns of masculine nouns vary according to whether they are:
- persons,
- animals,
- objects and plants.

Tabele odmiany według Jana Tokarskiego
Wzory deklinacji

Kozak (Cossack) - Kozacy
kozak (boot) - kozaki

Sometimes we use "forma deprecjatywna" depreciation form, and we decline people as object, that implies a negative attitud to them. But "Niemce" is rader an old form of declination:

"W ciągu w. XVI. rzeczowniki osobowe na -ec przybrały -y zamiast -e: kupcy, głupcy, Niemcy, ojcy, starcy, jeźdźcy i t. d.;"

"During the sixteenth century, personal nouns with -ec took -y instead of -e: merchants, fools, Germans, fathers, old men, horsemen, etc.;"

http://pbc.up.krakow.pl/Content/5465/gramatyka_jezyka_polskiego_wyk_pilat_roman_000292.pdf

 

[Drakonica]

-ii [pronunciation: -ji]
Arabia - Arabii
Arkadia - Arkadii
filozofia - filozofii
(...)
relikwia - relikwii
lodżia - lodżii

after c, s, z:

-ji [pronunciation: -ji]
Francja - Francji
Hesja - Hesji
Indonezja - Indonezji

That's because ci=[ć], si=[ś], zi=[ź].

after n (the most ridiculous):

-ni [pronunciation: -ńi] *1
Bogatynia [Bogatyńa] - Botatyni [Botatyńi]
pralnia [pralńa] - pralni [pralńi]
Mania [Mańa] - Mani [Mańi]

-nii [pronunciation: -ńi] *2
Kalifornia [Kaliforńa] - Kalifornii [Kaliforńi]
Narnia [Narńa] - Narnii [Narńi]

-nii [pronunciation: -ńji]
Bolonia [Bolońja] - Bolonii [Bolońji]
mania [mańja] - manii [mańji]

*1 *2 The rule is: you say [ńi] and write "ni" when the word is native or well assimilated. Don't ask me what means "well assimilated".

For example, we wrote "Narni" for years, but a decade ago, linguists concluded that Narnia was not properly assimilated and should be written "Narnii".

 

[gvergara]

Thanks for your help. What about the plural nominative of Norweg? The Wiktionary indicates two forms: Norwegowie and Norwedzy, whereas www.odmiana.net lists three: On top of the two aforementioned forms, it also lists Norwegi .

 

[zaffy]

Norwegowie and Norwedzy,

Both are fine. "Norwegowie" is more common.

it also lists Norwegi

It doesn't work.

 

[Drakonica]

www.odmiana.net lists ...

Don't use this site. It looks like automaticly generated content.

https://odmiana.net/odmiana-przez-przypadki-rzeczownika-pies
"psowie" doesn't makes sense at all
Maybe if that was someone's surname:
- Pan Pies.
- Państwo Psowie.
There are some "grammatical" sites like that.

Use:
pies – Wikisłownik, wolny słownik wielojęzyczny

 

[Henares]

I could imagine someone saying something like this in a humorous way, for example, after a football match: “Znowu te Niemce wygrały”. But it’s a very specific language register, not standard Polish by any means.

Edit:
”Norwegi“ could be used as well in this register.

 

[jasio]

Some of the examples (Niemce, Norwegi) sound a bit archaic, so they might have been used in the past, but their use nowadays is marginal at the best. For example for artistic or humorous reasons, as was mentioned earlier.