nominally, actually

Hiro Sasaki

Banned
Japan, Japanese
Is the following sentence is correct ?


Although Yoshimitsu later transferred the office of shogun nominally to his
son Yoshimochi, he yielded power actually in Kitayama.


Hiro Sasaki
 
  • Joelline

    Senior Member
    American English
    Your sentence is almost perfect in terms of grammar; I think "yield power to" someone is more commonly used. In addition, however, for stylistic reasons, you might move the word "actually: Although Yoshimitsu later transferred the office of shogun nominally to his
    son Yoshimochi, he actually yielded power to Kitayama.
     

    Hiro Sasaki

    Banned
    Japan, Japanese
    Your sentence is almost perfect in terms of grammar; I think "yield power to" someone is more commonly used. In addition, however, for stylistic reasons, you might move the word "actually: Although Yoshimitsu later transferred the office of shogun nominally to his
    son Yoshimochi, he actually yielded power to Kitayama.
    Thank you, Joelline. Kitayama was a palace where the shogun government's offices existed. " To" is appropriate ?

    Hiro Sasaki
     

    Dimcl

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    Thank you, Joelline. Kitayama was a palace where the shogun government's offices existed. " To" is appropriate ?

    Hiro Sasaki
    If Kitayama was a place, the sentence would read:

    Although Yoshimitsu later transferred the office of shogun nominally to his
    son Yoshimochi, he actually ywielded power to in Kitayama.


    Joelline would have been correct if Kitayama were a person.
     

    Hiro Sasaki

    Banned
    Japan, Japanese
    If Kitayama was a place, the sentence would read:

    Although Yoshimitsu later transferred the office of shogun nominally to his
    son Yoshimochi, he actually ywielded power to in Kitayama.

    Joelline would have been correct if Kitayama were a person.
    Thank you, Joelline, and Dimel,


    I thought so.


    Hiro Sasaki
     

    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    If Kitayama was a place, the sentence would read:

    Although Yoshimitsu later transferred the office of shogun nominally to his
    son Yoshimochi, he actually ywielded power to in Kitayama.

    Joelline would have been correct if Kitayama were a person.
    I was wondering about this too, Dimcl, but lacked your boldness. I wondered if the nominal yielding to his son was accompanied by an actual yielding to the lord of Kitayama. The apparent antitheses between nominal and actual, the son and Kitayama, seem a bit pointless if the verb changes. That's not to say you aren't correct, nevertheless.
     

    Hiro Sasaki

    Banned
    Japan, Japanese
    I was wondering about this too, Dimcl, but lacked your boldness. I wondered if the nominal yielding to his son was accompanied by an actual yielding to the lord of Kitayama. The apparent antitheses between nominal and actual, the son and Kitayama, seem a bit pointless if the verb changes. That's not to say you aren't correct, nevertheless.
    Sorry, in the previous sentences, it is clear that Kitayama is the
    name of a place.


    The Temple was situalted in the northern-east of Kyoto, called "Kitayama",
    or "Hokusan", Northern mountains in English.

    In this place, Fujiwara (Saionji ) Kintsune, important aristocrat and eminent
    poet constructed his villa and the Saion-ji Temple in 1224.



    In 1397, the third shogun of Muromachi, Ashikaga Yoshimitsu obtained this
    land of Kitayama. He restored the garden and built the palace called
    Kitayama-dono ( Palace of Kitayama ) which bacame not only his residence
    but the office of the shogun government. The area was larger than the
    Imperial Palace.

    In Kitayama area, so-called Kitayama culture flourished, as many aristocrats
    and important persons lived there.



    Hiro Sasaki
     

    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Sorry, in the previous sentences, it is clear that Kitayama is the
    name of a place.


    The Temple was situalted in the northern-east of Kyoto, called "Kitayama",
    or "Hokusan", Northern mountains in English.

    In this place, Fujiwara (Saionji ) Kintsune, important aristocrat and eminent
    poet constructed his villa and the Saion-ji Temple in 1224.


    In 1397, the third shogun of Muromachi, Ashikaga Yoshimitsu obtained this
    land of Kitayama. He restored the garden and built the palace called
    Kitayama-dono ( Palace of Kitayama ) which bacame not only his residence
    but the office of the shogun government. The area was larger than the
    Imperial Palace.

    In Kitayama area, so-called Kitayama culture flourished, as many aristocrats
    and important persons lived there.


    Hiro Sasaki
    Thanks for this, Hiro. The important point, for us, is whether Yoshimitsu relinquished power altogether after passing it nominally to his son. Did he wield power in Kitayama, or yield power to Kitayama?
     

    Hiro Sasaki

    Banned
    Japan, Japanese
    Thanks for this, Hiro. The important point, for us, is whether Yoshimitsu relinquished power altogether after passing it nominally to his son. Did he wield power in Kitayama, or yield power to Kitayama?
    The same thing happended with the first shogun Tokugawa, Ieyasu
    who retired in Suruga ( now Shizuoka prefecture ) but he maintained
    power. His son was shogun by name and he was in Yedo ( Now, Tokyo).

    During several decades, the retired emperors had more power than
    emperors who had not political power.

    Iemitsu had power in Kitayama until his death. His son had the office
    in other place of Kyoto.


    In present organizations, this kind of things will happen.


    High school students send questions about the dual powers to the history forum and therefore, strangely enough, this is also difficult for us to understand easily.

    Hiro Sasaki
     

    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    The same thing happended with the first shogun Tokugawa, Ieyasu
    who retired in Suruga ( now Shizuoka prefecture ) but he maintained
    power. His son was shogun by name and he was in Yedo ( Now, Tokyo).

    During several decades, the retired emperors had more power than
    emperors who had not political power.

    Iemitsu had power in Kitayama until his death. His son had the office
    in other place of Kyoto.


    In present organizations, this kind of things will happen.


    High school students send questions about the dual powers to the history forum and therefore, strangely enough, this is also difficult for us to understand easily.

    Hiro Sasaki
    Thanks, Hiro. So Dimcl is correct: he wielded power in Katayama.
     
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