Nordic Languages and English

[mrr5052]

I'm not sure if this is an acceptable topic but I'll try anyway. I watch alot of professional hockey and it seems like the Swedes and Finns (more so with Swedes) are very proficient in the English language compared to all other non-native speakers from other countries. Some have no discernable accents at all. Is this because of the similarities between the languages or is learning proper English a major concern in these countries?

Please respond in English.

 

[Alxmrphi]

In Scandinavia the level of English is amazing, Iceland is another place (like Norway and Denmark) where it's taught from a very early age, foreign language TV is generally subtitled into the native language and not dubbed, so people listen to English and hear it every day, for long sustained periods of time... it's difficult to not become extremely proficient if you're around it all the time.

I was chatting to a guy I thought was from Ireland, he had the tiniest slight trace of an Irish accent, and thought I was clever picking it out, (thinking otherwise he was from England), until he told me he was Swedish, and I was absolutely gobsmacked. He spoke with all the colloquialisms we use and had no trouble speaking at a fast pace, he is only 20-22.

 

[cocuyo]

It is definitely not because of any similarities. Phonetically, English is very far from any Swedish vernacular, and although there are a few grammatical similarities, they are not prominent.

I think the major factor is that movies are not dubbed into Swedish, but they have subtitles, where the Swedish translation can be read at the same time as we hear the sound. That is the way I learned American accents in English, and they seem prevalent when Swedes speak English. So I'd rather say that there are lots of Swedes that speak English with an American accent, rather than no discernable accent. Of course this is a gereralisation.

 

[mrr5052]

Thanks alot! That's so cool, especially the accent part. I never thought of it like that.

 

[jonquiliser]

Cocuyo, I think it does have very much to do with similarities between English and Swedish. Exposure through all sorts of media and English classes since a very young age obviously determines a lot. But the ease of picking up ENglish specifically is most certainly because of how similar it is in many senses to Swedish (the same goes for other Germanic languages). When I was in elementary school, Finnish was introduced earlier (at age 9), and I grew up in Finland so definitely was exposed to Finnish, yet my English always has been and still is much, much stronger than my Finnish.

(As a side note, I think most, or at least loads of Swedes have a very particular accent - the same singing sound as their Swedish has )

 

[solregn]

Cocuyo, I think it does have very much to do with similarities between English and Swedish. Exposure through all sorts of media and English classes since a very young age obviously determines a lot. But the ease of picking up ENglish specifically is most certainly because of how similar it is in many senses to Swedish (the same goes for other Germanic languages).

I agree. I know for a fact that it's much easier for a Swedish person than for a French person to learn and use English phrasal verbs for example (e.g. put on, give in, watch out) because the same thing exists in Swedish, partikelverb (e.g. sätta på, ge upp, se upp) - whereas in French you would use only one word/verb for these verbal constructions. There are a lot of grammatical structures that unite the Germanic languages even though there sometimes are major differences in vocabulary.

(As a side note, I think most, or at least loads of Swedes have a very particular accent - the same singing sound as their Swedish has )

Word! I usually recognise Swedish people speaking English right away when I'm other countries...

 

[cocuyo]

I surely often identify not only that they are Swedish, but also from which part of Sweden; particularly people from Gothenburg are easily picked from their accent in English, and people from Norway often have a similar accent. However, it's true that the structure of the language is rather easily applied for the syntactical similarities.

 

[Södertjej]

My two cents:

The Scandinavian languages are very rich phonetically, this is, they have a lot of sounds that are not always used in other languages, so that's one of the reasons behind their "good ear" to imitate foreign sounds. I read once that only Thai has more vocal sounds than Swedish, and its consonants can be a nightmare for speakers of languages where the pronunciation is a lot milder, so a Scandinvian native speaker learns naturally with his mother tongue more sounds than speakers of other languages.

So that's another factor why Scandinavians tend to achieve a good pronunciation in most languages when they study them long enough. Sometimes it's more the intonation than the pronunciation that gives them away, as Jonquiliser pointed out.

It is definitely not because of any similarities. Phonetically, English is very far from any Swedish vernacular, and although there are a few grammatical similarities, they are not prominent.

I beg to differ. There are not many English sounds that you can't find in Swedish, and the ones that don't exist in Swedish are not so difficult to pronounce. Yet there are some Swedish sounds you simply don't have in English (and many other languages!).

As for grammar, of course there are differences but both are languages have a common germanic root so I wouldn't say there are just "a few grammatical similarities". The verb structures are basically the same, the word order is very similar (even though Swedish is a lot more complicated), structures like comparisons (bra/bättre/bäst good/better/best) are clearly related, conditional sentences are just the same, phrasal verbs (as already mentioned... here you can get funny examples of Swenglish, when people just translate the Swedish verb into English which happens to have a different meaning).

As Solregn pointed out it's more difficult if your native language is another aone, but you don't really have to make a huge effort to learn English grammar if Swedish is your native language.

 

[Sepia]

I can only aggree in most of what has been said here and add: I I hardly know anyone from Denmark or Sweden who speaks English well, who did not mainly learn it from television, movies and pop music. (Sorry teachers ...). Who mainly relied on the school system, poor things ...

What accents are concerned - yeah its true, even if you start early, like in my case at the age of six - it is hard not to have some giveaway regional accent. However, many native English-speakers do not notice because English is spoken in such a huge big area and has so many regional versions in itself. So if you are tired of being spotted as the exotic foreigner, just pick a dialect from the other end of the country and chances are good that you'll get away with it if you handle yourself and the language well. Like my sister, who grew up in the Danish-German border-region like myself, was often mistaken for a New Zealander while she was living in London. For some reason, when I am travelling around the West Coast of America or meeting I am for some reason sometimes held for a Southner at other times, depending on my mood, taken for an Easterner, while they can't figure out if it is New Jersey, New York or even Toronto.

And the funny thing is, when I stay for a longer period at one place - like in Canada where a good selection of my relatives are living - begin unconsciously adjusting myself to the local accent that is where an indreasing number of people start spotting the "other accent".

So dear native speakers, even if you think you hear an accent and believe you have spottet "the foreigner" you may only have spotted the most obvious one. Listen carefully and you may occasionally detect the "secondary accent".

---

What somebody said about detecting the native regional accent when somebody speaks a foreign language, I can confirm: I once noticed a Polish guy at a party speaking Polish - BUT, he was born in Poland and had been raised in Denmark, and even someone who does not understand Polish could actually tell from his accent in which part of Denmark he had been raised.

 

[sennacherib]

As far as I'm concerned, some Nordic people will have an accent when speaking English which is common when people are speaking foreign languages.

And most of their pronunciations tend to be British other than American English.

However their English are pretty good

 

[Huffameg]

I can only aggree in most of what has been said here and add: I I hardly know anyone from Denmark or Sweden who speaks English well, who did not mainly learn it from television, movies and pop music. (Sorry teachers ...). Who mainly relied on the school system, poor things ...

What accents are concerned - yeah its true, even if you start early, like in my case at the age of six - it is hard not to have some giveaway regional accent. However, many native English-speakers do not notice because English is spoken in such a huge big area and has so many regional versions in itself. So if you are tired of being spotted as the exotic foreigner, just pick a dialect from the other end of the country and chances are good that you'll get away with it if you handle yourself and the language well. Like my sister, who grew up in the Danish-German border-region like myself, was often mistaken for a New Zealander while she was living in London. For some reason, when I am travelling around the West Coast of America or meeting I am for some reason sometimes held for a Southner at other times, depending on my mood, taken for an Easterner, while they can't figure out if it is New Jersey, New York or even Toronto.

Just to add a point of view.
I believe that despite the fact that the Nordic accents are not that easily detected does not mean that we don't have any! In some cases it might be that it shares some similarities with other accents. If you for instance listen to someone from Minnesota you might think that it sound like a Norwegian speaking really well English. This, of course, is caused by the high number of descendants of Norwegian immigrants living in the area.

 

[Sepia]

Just to add a point of view.
I believe that despite the fact that the Nordic accents are not that easily detected does not mean that we don't have any! In some cases it might be that it shares some similarities with other accents. If you for instance listen to someone from Minnesota you might think that it sound like a Norwegian speaking really well English. This, of course, is caused by the high number of descendants of Norwegian immigrants living in the area.

When you say so, sure ...

Personally I've never met anyone from the Mid-West sounding like someone from Scandinavia. Not even Golden Girl, Rose, when talking about the long gone relative, Lars Olsson.

 

[Wilma_Sweden]

(As a side note, I think most, or at least loads of Swedes have a very particular accent - the same singing sound as their Swedish has )

Word! I usually recognise Swedish people speaking English right away when I'm other countries...

This is so true - the intonation of their Swedish dialect will be detectable unless they speak extremely good English, so a Swede with a good ear for accents would certainly pick it up. Those from the south have less 'sing-songy' Swedish, and consequently less 'sing-songy' English, too.

Also, Finnish-speaking people tend to have a very particular accent when speaking English, quite unlike any other foreign accents I've heard!

I also agree with Sepia that it's so easy to get influenced by a local accent if you're staying in a particular place or mix with people with a certain accent (or language). A good example is Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, who's from Tasmania originally but now speaks English with a slight Danish accent!

/Wilma

 

[Hitchhiker]

This is so true - the intonation of their Swedish dialect will be detectable unless they speak extremely good English, so a Swede with a good ear for accents would certainly pick it up. Those from the south have less 'sing-songy' Swedish, and consequently less 'sing-songy' English, too.

Also, Finnish-speaking people tend to have a very particular accent when speaking English, quite unlike any other foreign accents I've heard!

I also agree with Sepia that it's so easy to get influenced by a local accent if you're staying in a particular place or mix with people with a certain accent (or language). A good example is Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, who's from Tasmania originally but now speaks English with a slight Danish accent!

/Wilma

When I was in the military I was sent to the north of Norway. The Norwegian passports I saw had two Norwegian languages. In writing they looked very similar to me. I mentioned the intonation in Norwegian and Swedish to a Swedish girl and she told me it is much stronger in Norway. I do know that the intonation is part of the language in both Norwegian and Swedish and different intonations change the meaning of statements in both Norwegian and Swedish. As I understand it the Danish language is very similar but intonations do not change the meanings of statements in Danish.

Being fairly small countries both Norway and Sweden manage the money and schools well and have few problems with corruption. It might just be their small size that films aren't dubbed. Sweden has a film industry and Swedish films and actors are popular in Norway.

There are regions in the US and Canada where people speak English with Scandinavian accents.

 

[jonquiliser]

Also, Finnish-speaking people tend to have a very particular accent when speaking English, quite unlike any other foreign accents I've heard!

No doubt One of the most prominent characteristics of a Finnish accent in English probably being the flat intonation (for which I have an inclination myself ) and certain vowel sounds (Finns speaking Spanish on the other hand I usually recognise from certain consonant sounds).

For Swedes, I think it is mostly syllable length, tones and v/w that does it (confusing v/w seems to be universal among Swedish speakers... Only v's or only w's are fine, but mixing them, ouch! I sometimes "wonder whether it's vegan" - and that final v, poor thing .)

 

[sound shift]

I take my hat off to the Scandinavians for their ability in English. If I were being fastidious I would say that some of them seem to have trouble with certain voiced consonants: "television" can sound like "tele-fission" and "reason" can sound like "recent", minus the "T".

 

[Grefsen]

For Swedes, I think it is mostly syllable length, tones and v/w that does it (confusing v/w seems to be universal among Swedish speakers... Only v's or only w's are fine, but mixing them, ouch! I sometimes "wonder whether it's vegan" - and that final v, poor thing .)

Very interesting thread.

Confusing v/w also seems to be universal among native Norwegian speakers as well. When a Norwegian is speaking English, I can't usually detect a difference in pronunciation between "Vail" (a ski resort in Colorado that is very popular with Norwegians) and "whale" (the large marine mammal that Greenpeace wants Norway to stop hunting).

 

[Alxmrphi]

It's the same with German as well, the v/w issue, because the German "w" is pronounced like "v" and they (in my experience) very often forget this change.
When Icelanders speak English, the thing that always throws me is the constant mix up of v/f (I haf come here...)

 

[solregn]

As to Swedes pronouncing 'w:s' as 'v:s', that's perfectly normal (i.e. it's still incorrect, but there is a logical explination! ) since that's how the Swedish prounciation works. We say "visky" even though we spell it whisky.

Same thing with s/z - the letter 'z' is always pronounced as an 's' in Swedish (same in other Nordic languages I suppose?) and there is no equivalent to the "buzzing" s-sound in certain English words such as roses, please and eyes.

As a side-point, the latter can cause problems when speaking other languages as well, e.g. French - mixing up words as baisser ('to lower', 'to dim') and baiser ('to have sex with', 'to swindle' - both offensive...) can put you in awkward situations

 

[Lugubert]

On accents, I have been told that it is generally easier for Swedes to pick up a reasonable Gordie accent than for natives who are into Kentish etc. Myself, I felt quite at home phonetically already in the Midlands.

On the v/w problem, only in the last year or so, there's a rising debate on whether Swedish dictionaries should switch to separating v and w as different leters, or go on to have sequences under "v,w" like the succession vevtapp - whisky - whiskygrogg - whist - vi.

Subtitled movies have been mentioned several times as contributing to our general level of English. To a single post above, I add my support to the influence of music. The support the "Pirate Party" got in the recent EU elections point to that downloading is an important culture of its own.

I have no children or even know any of appropriate ages, but I think that there is a real possibility that on-line computer games might contribute to English literacy in Sweden.

 

[MarX]

It's the same with German as well, the v/w issue, because the German "w" is pronounced like "v" and they (in my experience) very often forget this change.
When Icelanders speak English, the thing that always throws me is the constant mix up of v/f (I haf come here...)

When Germans speak English there's a tendency to pronounce V as W, or at least a sound betwen W and V. So value => walue, invade => inwade, very => wery, etc.
I don't know if this happens a lot when Scandinavians are speaking English.

The Z pronounced as S is definitely something that is quite widespread among Scandinavians.

 

[brtkrbzhnv]

When Germans speak English there's a tendency to pronounce V as W, or at least a sound betwen W and V. So value => walue, invade => inwade, very => wery, etc.
I don't know if this happens a lot when Scandinavians are speaking English.

I think it's nearly universal, at least in Sweden. Here are some things you'll hear in almost all Swedes' English:
/w/ → [ʋ]
/v/ → [ʋ]
/z/ → [s]
/ʒ/ → [ʃ]
/tʃ/ → [ʃ] (only word-initially)

/dʒ/ → [j] also occurs word-initially in the speech of many.

 

[Wilma_Sweden]

Subtitled movies have been mentioned several times as contributing to our general level of English. To a single post above, I add my support to the influence of music. The support the "Pirate Party" got in the recent EU elections point to that downloading is an important culture of its own.

I have no children or even know any of appropriate ages, but I think that there is a real possibility that on-line computer games might contribute to English literacy in Sweden.

I agree with all of the above. Computers in general and online activities have no doubt added to kids' English skills - after all, anything that's fun is easy to learn. When I hear my nephew and his friends discussing computer games, it's in a weird Swenglish, half of which you don't understand unless you've played these games...

/Wilma

 

[Lugubert]

/dʒ/ → [j] also occurs word-initially in the speech of many.

Many years go there was a song mocking this feature: "My name is Yumping Yulius".

Many Swedes also have difficulties with the th's. Thing will sound like sing, and not too long ago there was a radio pop music program host who consistently referred to the Beatles as [de bi:tels].

 

[Huldra]

The Z pronounced as S is definitely something that is quite widespread among Scandinavians.

I definitely agree with that! Scandinavians struggle with most voiced consonants (as we have very few), but I think the 's' is exeptionally difficult.

The difference between 'v' and 'w' is, at least in my experience, more focused on in school, where as 's' and 'z' are seen more as one consonant. For example when I listen to the radio, I can almost always hear if the artist is scandinavian.