Norwegian: Adjectives after hvert/hver

sjiraff

Senior Member
English
Hello!

I was always under the impression that adjectives between hvert/hver and the noun would match the gender of the word, for example in a grammar book it says:

Hvert stort hus
Hver stor bil

But I also read on an article "Hvert nye spill har introdusert nye funksjoner og muligheter" - and when I google search "hvert nye" it turns up a lot, so I've obviously overlooked something important I think.

As a native English speaker I can't really understand why one would say "each new games" (if that's what it's saying) or why this would be plural. (What would be the point in saying 'each' if you mean 'all'?)

I've tried looking in two books I have but haven't found any examples of when this would ever be like that, so I'm a bit at a loss!

Thanks
 
  • myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Hi,

    Hvert stort hus :cross:
    Hvert store hus :tick:
    Hvert nytt spill :cross:
    Hvert nye spill :tick:

    You should use the definite form of the adjective in this case because hver(t) is a determiner and when you find adjectives after certain determiners, they take the definite form.
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    Hi,

    Hvert stort hus :cross:
    Hvert store hus :tick:
    Hvert nytt spill :cross:
    Hvert nye spill :tick:

    You should use the definite form of the adjective in this case because hver(t) is a determiner and when you find adjectives after certain determiners, they take the definite form.
    Thanks!

    Is this always the case? It got the hvert stort hus example from a book called 'Norwegian an Essential Grammar' and it states the adjective should use the indefinate rather than definate form after hver/hvert/enhver/ethvert.

    Edit: Here is a good link which I found too, but doesn't mention this kind of change I don't think
    http://ordnett.no/språkverktøy/språkvett.hver
    Under "Hver foran adjektiv"
     
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    Ífaradà

    Member
    Norwegian/Yoruba
    Well, both the book and the link is wrong. That's the only rational explanation.

    I would never say "hvert rødt eple" and all the other examples which are given. It's odd to say the least, but I can't remember seeing anything like that before.
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    Well, both the book and the link is wrong. That's the only rational explanation.

    I could've never said "hvert rødt eple" and all the other examples which are given. It's odd to say the least, but I can't remember seeing anything like that before.
    interesting, on google "hvert stort" gets around 107,000 results yet "hvert store" gets around 9,000.
     

    Ífaradà

    Member
    Norwegian/Yoruba
    interesting, on google "hvert stort" gets around 107,000 results yet "hvert store" gets around 9,000.
    Yes, but if you look at those hits, rarely any of them have those two words in the same sentence or right after each other.

    That said. Saying for example "hvert store hus" is a pretty uncommon way of expression from my experience. Usually people say: "hvert av de store husene" and so on.
    I can also guarantee you that you'll never hear anyone actually say "hvert stort eple/hus", so while I'm no grammar expert, that much I know:p
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    Yes, but if you look at those hits, rarely any of them have those two words in the same sentence or right after each other.
    All of them do, I searched "hvert stort" with the inverted commas.

    It's just odd given that both a textbook and that site state the adjective should be in the indefinate form rather than indefinate.
     

    Ífaradà

    Member
    Norwegian/Yoruba
    All of them do, I searched "hvert stort" with the inverted commas.

    It's just odd given that both a textbook and that site state the adjective should be in the indefinate form rather than indefinate.
    From what I can see on the first page, the hits are mostly "etter hvert" followed by "stort sett". Which means "after a while" and "more or less/pretty much".

    I don't understand why the textbook would say something like that when it's obviously incorrect. The link you provided though, says "som regel" which means "most of the time", so I suppose there's room for the definite form as well, though it's clearly the most widely used form in this case.

    Still odd. Will definitely try to research this.
     
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    myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Thanks!

    Is this always the case? It got the hvert stort hus example from a book called 'Norwegian an Essential Grammar' and it states the adjective should use the indefinate rather than definate form after hver/hvert/enhver/ethvert.

    Edit: Here is a good link which I found too, but doesn't mention this kind of change I don't think
    http://ordnett.no/språkverktøy/språkvett.hver
    Under "Hver foran adjektiv"
    With hver/hvert I would use the definite form while with enhvert/ethvert I would use the indefinite form.
    Hvert nytt spill sounds awkward but after checking around a little, it seems that that kind of construction can be used but I have to force myself to process it.

    I also find it strange that they write "Når et ordenstall kommer mellom hver og adjektivet, er det valgfritt om en skriver bestemt eller ubestemt form av adjektivet. Likedan er det hvis det står eneste foran adjektivet". Grammatically speaking, it doesn't make much sense.
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    With hver/hvert I would use the definite form while with enhvert/ethvert I would use the indefinite form.
    Hvert nytt spill sounds awkward but after checking around a little, it seems that that kind of construction can be used but I have to force myself to process it.
    That's interesting, I never doubted anything anyone said here but it's odd that every Norwegian-language resource I've encountered has either not mentioned this at all (so one would be left to assume you'd say "hvert nytt spill..." or, as in the case of the two I mentioned in this thread, actually specified it should be indefinate.

    So this means I should always say things like "hver kjølige dag måtte jeg ha på meg solbriller"?

    I also find it strange that they write "Når et ordenstall kommer mellom hver og adjektivet, er det valgfritt om en skriver bestemt eller ubestemt form av adjektivet. Likedan er det hvis det står eneste foran adjektivet". Grammatically speaking, it doesn't make much sense.
    Which one would you use of the examples they gave, definate or indefinate?

    Can't believe I overlooked something like this for so long!
     

    myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    So this means I should always say things like "hver kjølige dag måtte jeg ha på meg solbriller"?
    That's what sounds best to me but if both kjølig and kjølige are allowed, there is no "should always" :) I have to say that it's a construction I probably never use.


    Which one would you use of the examples they gave, definate or indefinate?
    I would use the definite form.
     
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    NorwegianNYC

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    There is in addition a semantic difference here:
    Hvert nytt spill kommer med en liten gave = Every new game comes with a small gift
    Hvert nye spill kommer med en liten gave = Each new game comes with a small gift
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    That's what sounds best to me but if both kjølig and kjølige are allowed, there is no such as "should always" :) I have to say that it's a construction I probably never use.
    Maybe it's one of those things like how a lot of English speakers say "I wish I was..." or "If I was..." which is technically wrong but can often "sound" more correct to our ears. (should be were instead of was)
    It's not the most commonly said thing, but it sure helps to know, I was quite surprised when I read it and heard "hvert nye spill" and couldn't work out if he was saying it because he meant flere spill or something else.


    I would use the definite form.
    That's interesting as well, maybe it's because my native language is English but to me "Hver eneste norsk borger" would make more logical sense over "hver tiende norske borger" since it's each single inhabitant.

    So I should say:
    Enhver lys dag...every bright day
    Hver lyse dag...each bright day

    If I've understood everything correctly

    Thanks!
     

    NorwegianNYC

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Well - if you look at "hvert stort hus" and "hvert store hus" there is a subtle, but important difference.
    "Hvert stort hus har fire soverom" means that all the big houses (as opposed to small houses) have four bedrooms.
    "Hvert store hus har fire soverom" means that each big house has got four bedrooms
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    Well - if you look at "hvert stort hus" and "hvert store hus" there is a subtle, but important difference.
    "Hvert stort hus har fire soverom" means that all the big houses (as opposed to small houses) have four bedrooms.
    "Hvert store hus har fire soverom" means that each big house has got four bedrooms
    Maybe the idea of "each" in Norwegian has a different "strength" or something to it as opposed to English? For me the difference seems kind of hard to get, I would just say "Each of the big houses" (Hvert av de store husene) if I wanted to imply there were a distinction between two kinds. (As Ífaradà mentioned in post 6) - especially since "each new game", the fact it has "new" would imply it's in contrast to being "old" anyway, so either "hvert nye spill" or "hvert nytt spill" to me mean the same thing.
     

    NorwegianNYC

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Look at it like this: "Hvert nytt spill" means something like "in every single new game..."
    Whereas, "Hvert nye spill" means "in each and every game that is new"
    The difference is the emphasis. "Hvert nytt" refers to something that will happen in all of the new games. "Hvert nye" limits it to the new games. So, semantically, the difference is where you put the emphasis.
     

    sjiraff

    Senior Member
    English
    Look at it like this: "Hvert nytt spill" means something like "in every single new game..."
    Whereas, "Hvert nye spill" means "in each and every game that is new"
    The difference is the emphasis. "Hvert nytt" refers to something that will happen in all of the new games. "Hvert nye" limits it to the new games. So, semantically, the difference is where you put the emphasis.
    I'm sort of straining my brain here a bit haha, since to me "Every single new game" is the same as "every game that is new" only switching the words around.

    But, if saying "hvert nye" and using the definate form after hver/hvert sounds better, I think I will stick to that.
     

    myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Well - if you look at "hvert stort hus" and "hvert store hus" there is a subtle, but important difference.
    "Hvert stort hus har fire soverom" means that all the big houses (as opposed to small houses) have four bedrooms.
    "Hvert store hus har fire soverom" means that each big house has got four bedrooms
    I get the difference, but how important is it? Both expressions denote the exact same set of objects and as far as I can see, they are also truth-conditionally equivalent.
     

    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    interesting, on google "hvert stort" gets around 107,000 results yet "hvert store" gets around 9,000.
    You can't rely on Google results if you want to check if a word or a grammatical form is much used or not. Google gives you not only texts written originally in Norwegian (or any other language) but a lot of Google translated texts from other languages.
     

    raumar

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    I'm sort of straining my brain here a bit haha, since to me "Every single new game" is the same as "every game that is new" only switching the words around.

    But, if saying "hvert nye" and using the definate form after hver/hvert sounds better, I think I will stick to that.
    The distinction may be a bit too subtle for me as well, but I agree with NorwegianNYC's point: Both the definite and the indefinite form can be used, but the choice may depend on context. My intuition (which may be completely wrong) is that the indefinite form works better in more poetic or solemn writing, for example "Hver ny dag er en gave".
     

    Ífaradà

    Member
    Norwegian/Yoruba
    The distinction may be a bit too subtle for me as well, but I agree with NorwegianNYC's point: Both the definite and the indefinite form can be used, but the choice may depend on context. My intuition (which may be completely wrong) is that the indefinite form works better in more poetic or solemn writing, for example "Hver ny dag er en gave".
    To my ears that just sounds way off and completely wrong. I'm a youngster though. Perhaps it is grammatically correct, but that doesn't mean it should be used.
     

    NorwegianNYC

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    The distinction may be a bit too subtle for me as well, but I agree with NorwegianNYC's point: Both the definite and the indefinite form can be used, but the choice may depend on context. My intuition (which may be completely wrong) is that the indefinite form works better in more poetic or solemn writing, for example "Hver ny dag er en gave".
    Interesting point. I agree with you that the indefinite form does not see the same kind of use. However, I came up with an example in class the other day:
    (1) Du får avslag for hver ny bok du kjøper
    (2) Du får avslag for hver nye bok du kjøper

    (1) does not actually mean "new", but "additional". The book itself does not have to be new, you are simply buying a new one (although it may be old and used)
    (2) is a discount for buying books that are new (and not old or used)
     

    myšlenka

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    Yes, it may be a difference between the generations in how these words are used.
    I agree. My first reaction to hver/hvert + indefinite adjectives was that it sounded weird, but after seeing a few (better) examples I admit that they sound ok in certain cases while I have to spell my way through the construction in others.
     
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    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    However, I came up with an example in class the other day:
    (1) Du får avslag for hver ny bok du kjøper
    (2) Du får avslag for hver nye bok du kjøper

    (1) does not actually mean "new", but "additional". The book itself does not have to be new, you are simply buying a new one (although it may be old and used)
    (2) is a discount for buying books that are new (and not old or used)
    Hei alle sammen! Reviving this old thread instead of opening a new one. Does this distinction exist for other Norwegian speakers too? This thread has been a bit difficult for me: from my learning so far, I thought it should always be "hver nye bok", "hvert store hus".
     

    Svenke

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    I think it's fair to say that this is a part of Norwegian grammar that is in a flux. Some have clear preferences for either the definite form (-e) or the indefinite form, some don't, and some think there is a difference, at least in some cases (e.g. with ny/nye, with two meanings).
     

    winenous

    Senior Member
    English - British
    Usually people say: "hvert av de store husene" and so on.
    That point was also made (totally unprompted from me) by my Norwegian relatives.
    I can also guarantee you that you'll never hear anyone actually say "hvert stort eple/hus", so while I'm no grammar expert, that much I know:p
    On the other hand, if pushed, they WOULD favour "hvert stort hus" over "hvert store hus" :(

    As a foreigner/learner it sounds safest to try to stick with "hvert av de store husene".
     
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