Norwegian: Me er... or Vi er...

WondererCarvalho

Senior Member
Portugês (Brasil)
Once I've read "Me er..." for "we are..."; next, in an other text I've read "Vi er... (only form I found in dictionary)" for the same statement. What's the difference between the first and the second one?! Is one of two incorrect?

Mange takk på forhånd!!!
 
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  • Cerb

    Senior Member
    Norwegian - Bokmål
    "Me" can be used for "vi" in nynorsk. It's not correct in written bokmål, but it is used in a lot of western dialects when spoken even if the speaker writes bokmål. There's also the case of people writing in their dialect or mixing in parts of it of course. This usually only happens in very informal writing though (text messages for instance).
     
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    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Interestingly, in standard German "we" is "wir" (pronounced /vir/), but in a variety of German dialects "mir" is used. I wonder if this is related to the Norwegian "me". (And in the Slavic languages, "we" is /mi/ or similar.)
     

    Cerb

    Senior Member
    Norwegian - Bokmål
    By informal I meant that writing in dialect rather than bokmål or nynorsk is used mostly for informal writing. While nynorsk was made by sampling a variety of Norwegian dialects, writing strictly in a given dialect can deviate a lot from both nynorsk and bokmål.

    It's tempting to speculate in a connection between "me" and "mir" with the long history of trading and maybe especially the Hanseatic connection Bergen has, but it's probably a bit far fetched. "Me" is also pronounced with an /e/ and not /i:/ as in English.

    edit: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ordboksoek.html is a very good resource for current bokmål and nynorsk.
     
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    Frenchlover1

    Senior Member
    Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
    The Norwegian language has been affected by the German language (e.g. after the black death, when most of the Norwegian nobility died or moved to other contries (to marry other noble people), noble people from other contries (Denmark, Sweden, German) moved to Norway, ergo affected our language), so that's probably where "me" and "vi" come from. The norrøne ways to say vi/me is "ver" (www.skoleside.no/dialekter.htm)

    Hope that was informative :)
     

    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    In addiction, I would like to know whether Norsk (being Bokmål or Nynorsk) is an inheritance of Viking culture before being mixed with other forms of speaking. I'm making some researches on it, because even knowing some differences between Bokmål and Nynorsk, I always bump into a new way of speaking between them that makes me wonder "where did it stem from?!".

    Takk deg, Frenchlover1!
     

    oskhen

    Senior Member
    Norwegian
    In addiction, I would like to know whether Norsk (being Bokmål or Nynorsk) is an inheritance of Viking culture before being mixed with other forms of speaking. I'm making some researches on it, because even knowing some differences between Bokmål and Nynorsk, I always bump into a new way of speaking between them that makes me wonder "where did it stem from?!".

    Takk deg, Frenchlover1!
    The Norwegian language has evolved from Old Norse, that people wrote/spoke in the Viking era, but there has been a lot of influence from abroad, especially since the Norse language more or less died (as a written language, at least) around 1350. During centuries of Danish rule, our written language (and the language of the upper classes) became Danish. Bokmål is derived from that, and I guess one almost could call it Norwegianized Danish (that is, Danish modified to Norwegian ways of talking). Nynorsk was created in the 19th century based on a sample of dialects. This is a bit closer to Old Norse (a little bit, but especially today the two languages are moving ever closer to one another), but we're still talking centuries of change, and I don't think it's possible to find any dialect as late as the 19th century that are without influence from abroad (and other places in Norway).
     

    Frenchlover1

    Senior Member
    Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
    No problem, I love to help you!
    I think it is so cool that you want to learn Norwegian! Me, I am absolutely crazy about French and other Romance languages :D

    To "answer" your wondering: The Norwegian language came from a Scandinavic language (urnordirsk) which the whole Scandinavia spoke the first millennium A.D. According to http://www.sprakrad.no/Politikk-Fakta/Fakta/, Norwegian devoloped "on its own" until the late 1300's. Then Swedish and Danish got a central role in Scandinavia, and affected Norwegian. Later the union with Danmark and also Sweden came: the language was affected. In the Danmark union many German people moved to Norway: ergo more affected.

    If you're interested, you can try the website above, and also try translate it on e.g. google translate into English or Portuguese :)

    And also: You don't have to be afraid if you talk "in the middle" of nynorsk and bokmål, Norwegians will easily understand it, and I hear many other immigrants who do it! :) (As you probobly know: ) there are loads of dialects in Norwegian, and some of them is more or less mixes between nynorsk and bokmål, så det går bra!:D
     

    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    I'm really glad to know I can count on you! And all that have been helped me out here! I found Norwegian language by studing German, listening to Norwegian bands and so on. Besides, your history is simply awesome to study about not to mention your language itself. I still got some doubts about speaking. for example, sometimes I hear "v" sounding as "w" and "k" or "kk" as "ch" (sometimes with a German accent and others like English) and I get a little confused.
    @FrenchLover1:
    I wish my French was propperly polished, than I could help you out ^_^
    But yet, French and Portuguese have some similarities between each other, so at least about meaning of some words, count on me ; )

    takk for de rike linken over!

    Takk så mye!
     
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    Cerb

    Senior Member
    Norwegian - Bokmål
    Reading over this thread again I spotted an error of mine which makes the "me" and "mir" connection even less plausible. "Me" means "we" and "mir" means "me" of course.
     

    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    Nevermind! I got that! Even because I used an example of different ways to express a single idea in two forms, so I've compared cases "me/vi er" ("We are") and "mir ist/ ich bin" (I am). Not for the meaning itself, but to exemplify how these ideas can be expressed in both forms. But now I noticed that between "me er and vi er" there's much more differences than just a colloquial matter ; )
     

    Nilstcm

    New Member
    Norwegian
    Just a small remark.
    As you all know norwegian language is packed with dialects and two official languages bokmål and nynorsk. For me as a native I often get confused by all this words whom is basically meaning the same like: vi, me and oss. The standard is "vi", but dialects uses a great varity of others. Myself I ALWAYS uses "oss". Perhaps, somebody would say that the word "oss" would not fit in all forms, but then we got variations who can be "vi". Myself I have NEVER used "me". Actually nynorsk is one of the additional norwegian languages whom many young ones do not like to learn at school (eventhough it is closer to their native spoken norwegian). Anyhow, thanks to Ivar aasen (the founder of this language) we have nynorsk. According to the developement within norwegian it looks as if bokmål and nynorsk is comming closer to eatch other. Meaning in 100 years we will have a new norwegian.

    When that is said it is perfectly accepted to combine the word as you like. Dialects is sometimes very hard to grasp like trøndersk: "Æ E I A Æ. Æ E I A Æ Å!", nynorsk "Søddog nerme" and selbygg "Drekin å gutan". Sometimes it is a fight to understand the words and that under 5 millions have so distinct different words for the same. We are always happy to hear foreigners trying to speak norvegian, or better wanting to learn...
     

    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Reading over this thread again I spotted an error of mine which makes the "me" and "mir" connection even less plausible. "Me" means "we" and "mir" means "me" of course.
    I was the one who first brought up the connection with German, so let me clarify this point. Yes, the equivalent of Eng "me" in German (usually dative case only) is "mir"; what's interesting is that in many German dialects, "mir" is ALSO used in place of "wir" to mean "we".

    Also, just to tie up loose ends: someone implied that German "mir ist" is used informally for the correct "ich bin". In fact, "mir ist" is perfectly good German in many contexts. An example might be "Mir ist es nicht klar...", literally "to me is it not clear".

    OK, unnskyld, tilbake til norsk...
     

    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    [Just a little point] Yes! When "mir ist" refers to an object ("etwas" ist nicht klar), it took the form of "To me" or "For me". But not rarely you can find "mir ist schlecht" or "mir ist enteuscht" etc... as "I feel ill/ disappointed" as to express feelings. But thanks to bring it up to knowlege! Indeed I was not very clear at the first statement, I didn't show an example : P

    Tilbake til Norsk...
    And for "oss" I always took that strictly for "us" e.g. "la oss.." for "let us(let's)". Now I researched about and found lots of "Oss er..." just like "vi/me er...". Terribly sorry to bother a little more, but I can't forbear asking, where does this form of speaking stem from, please? Is it more common to find in another specific dialect rather than Bokmål and Nynorsk?

    Mange Takk på forhånd!
     

    Frenchlover1

    Senior Member
    Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
    Just keep on asking, it's great to help! :D
    That is a very good question; lucky you I am right now preparing an oral examination about Norwegian dialects!

    In one part of Norway they say "oss" (which, as you correctly mention, means "us" in both Nynorsk and Bokmål) instead of me (or mi) or vi, and that is north in the south (big, oval part of Norway on the map) part of Norway:) It is more specific in the counties Oppland, Sør-Trøndelag and a little part of Møre og Romsdal.

    :)
     

    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    Can we say/write "mi" instead of "me", too? Great! Now I researched and found both "mi" and "min". But as far as I can notice, "min" works as possessive pronoun without an exception up to now. And another doubt (I'm thinking aobut openning another topic only for pronunciation, but I think it would be quite better to keep both skills in the same "bag" ^_^ ) is about a previous question of mine, about pronunciation of "v" and "kk" in the middle of some words. Sometimes "v" sound like "w" ("u" in Portuguese) and "kk" sounds like "ch". So you are a teacher, what means I'm million times lucky than you mentioned : )

    Obrigado pela ajuda!
    Takk for hjelpen!
     
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    Cerb

    Senior Member
    Norwegian - Bokmål
    @Dan2
    Just wanted to make sure I wasn't making anyone confused. Never heard "mir" for "wir", that's interesting :)

    I can't think of any dialects that use "mi" for "me" (we) at the moment, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. "Mi" is another form of the possessive pronoun "min". "Mi" is used when preceded by a feminine noun. What nouns are considered feminine can vary a lot depending on dialect, sociolect or personal preference however. I believe this has been discussed thoroughly somewhere else here recently.

    I have a feeling this topic will be split if we bring up pronounciation. I suggest you make a new thread for those sounds and provide some examples :) The "kk" turning into "ch" sounds very odd and we'll probably need some IPA help with the "v"-issue.
     

    Frenchlover1

    Senior Member
    Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
    @WondererCarvalho: Sorry for making you confused! In e.g. the southern part of Norway many say "mi" instead of me/vi (or oss). But you cannot write oss or mi for we, it is in the spoken dialects only.

    The ch sound that you hear instead of kk (example: iche instead of ikke) is also a part of a dialect, around Ålesund I know (most likely in other places too). "Ikke" can be pronounced in several ways (iche, ikke, itte, ikkje (more or less like in the English word wash) itjtj (Trondheim) and so on)

    However, if you want to hear Norwegian (Oslo/Bokmål) pronouncing, this is an excellent site: http://www.acapela-group.com/text-to-speech-interactive-demo.html
    (But be aware that everything is not always perfect, as you may hear if you listen to English/Portuguese too :))

    If you want to listen to the different dialects in Norway, try this excellent site: http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/nos/
    Here the same text is read by people with different Norwegian dialects :)

    Até já!
     
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    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    MUITO obrigado novamente e sempre!!!
    MANGE takk igjen og alltid, Frenchlover1!!!!

    It will be enough for me to learn the most I want to! Now I'm searching for a free dictionary (e.g. like WordWeb for English) of Norwegian. I got this Freelang Dictionary of Norwegian language. It looks reliable although simple comparing to I-Finger that I found but was just a trial : ( (It featured lots of examples for all Norwegian words I found). But would be great if I found one to work offline with.

    se deg! ; )
     
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    Frenchlover1

    Senior Member
    Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
    Obrigado por ser tão grato!
    Takk for at du er så takknemlig!
    Isso me faz tão feliz!
    Det gjør meg så glad!

    A free online Norwegian dictionary for both Bokmål and Nynorsk which is great: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ordboksoek.html

    English-Spanish-Norwegian (not that advanced, but it works on simple words)
    http://www.tritrans.net/

    And we also have our dear Google translate, of course ;)

    And, because you want to learn, this is the most correct way to say "See you" in Norwegian:
    Sees! See you
    Or
    Snakkes! Talk to you soon

    In my dialect (the Stavanger area) we don't use "sees", only "snakkes", but I know that they use "sees" in e.g. the Oslo area.

    Snakkes!
    Até breve!

    (Por favor corrijam os meus erros de português)

    :D
     

    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    Seu Português é perfeito! :thumbsup:

    Din Portugisisk er perfekt! :thumbsup:

    You're welcome! All the support I have been receiving here is just fantastic!

    As you asked me to correct any error in Portuguese, here you go. Indeed it's not an error at all, just when you put an "m" after a verb, you turn it into a plural form (no exception in this rule). For example, if you want to ask me to correct you, you just say "Por favor, corrija (singular) meus erros de português" (in Portuguese, names of languages are written all in lower case, in opposite of English (inglês) e.g.) :)
    Google puts into plural form when you translate to Portuguese (the most of languages don't have this "tricky" rules of changing verbs :D). Therefore your phrase is still correct, just with the verb into plural.
    I know you're into romantic languages like French and I'm "pulling" you to Portuguese :D, but if you want to learn about it, don't hesitate in asking
    me, I'll help you word by word, comma by comma. It's the minimum I should do for you seeing as you (and everybody here) have been helping me alot!!! :)

    Takk for linkene og tusen takk for hjelpen meg, igjen og alltid!
    (din tur til å rette noen feil av meg :D)

    I hope you all in Norway are still doing fine in spite of that Icelandic vulcan incident.
    Snakkes!
     
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    Frenchlover1

    Senior Member
    Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
    Thank you so much for your answer!

    It's very interesting about the plural/singular verb forms! I'd never heard of that before!
    Do you about know any other language which has it?

    But one thing: Is it the subject that decide the plural/singular verb form? :)
    Like, if I had asked the same question to many people, it had been corrijam?:)

    Aha, yes it must be, because os in Por favor corrijam os meus erros de português means dere?? :D

    Now I get eager!:D

    No no, thanks for learning me Portuguese! I love it! And it is very similar to French too!:D

    Back to Norwegian:D

    As always, your Norwegian impresses!:)

    Takk for linkene og tusen takk for hjelpen meg, igjen og alltid!

    Just some small things: You mean thank you for helping me, eh?:) In Norwegian it'll be:

    Takk for linkene og tusen takk for at du hjelper meg, igjen og alltid!

    That is more directly meant to ONE person: thank YOU for helping me.

    Takk for linkene og tusen takk for hjelpen, igjen og alltid!

    This is more generally: Thanks for the help.

    (din tur til å rette noen feil av meg )

    (Din tur til å rette mine feil)

    Continuar a aprender!
    Stå på med læringen!
     
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    WondererCarvalho

    Senior Member
    Portugês (Brasil)
    That's it! In Portuguese, the subject decides whether a verb is in singular or plural form. Then, both will be in plural form.
    You got it! If you are refering to many people, "corrijam" is correct because it's a verb. :tick:
    I think Spanish an Italian put thir verbs into plural obeying the subject as well ;)

    Tilbake til Norsk...

    Thanks a lot once again!
    I've been wondering when to use at du, now I guess I got it! I'm trying not to use Google or whatever while I write here, therefore I get glad with your praise about my (still weak) Norsk :).
    Surely I'll take notes of your corrections and study upon them!
    Takk deg igjen!
     
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