Norwegian: til og med

timtfj

Senior Member
UK English
Context: a conversation involving insects, in which this came up:
Ja, også her i Norge vi ser langt færre insekter enn da jeg var barn. Dette gjelder til og med når jeg er på landet.
I know roughly what the second sentence means: "This includes times when I'm out in the countryside" or "This is true even when I'm out in the country". But I'd like a bit of help with til og med if possible.

From Bokmålsordboka (definition 2 of med) it looks as though the phrase is normally about making ranges of dates or numbers inclusive: for example I might say Jeg er borte til og med 20. september for I'm away until Sept. 20th inclusive. But it's less clear how it applies to being in the countryside. Does it add emphasis as well (something like This even includes . . . ), or just the idea of inclusion?
 
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  • JohanIII

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    In this context til og med = even, as in your second translation (the first doesn't catch the meaning fully).

    It's certainly an inclusion, meaning that it also is like that out in the country.
    But just as the use of even - instead of also - indicates, you are also (sic!) somewhat surprised.
     

    hanne

    Senior Member
    I would consider it two different and unrelated meanings. That's what my "native feeling" says, anyway, and not based on any theoretical knowledge. "Til og med" meaning "even" is a fixed expression. "Til og med 20. september" is just two prepositions joined by og - in a combination that is use rather frequently, which is why I think the dictionary gave it as an example. "Until this date, and including it" (where "including" obviously isn't a preposition in English, but I'm sure you get the picture).
     

    bicontinental

    Senior Member
    English (US), Danish, bilingual
    Does it add emphasis as well (something like This even includes . . . )
    Yes, it is used emphatically in this context. I agree with Johan and Hanne that "even" is the most accurate translation for 'til og med' in this example, as it includes the same linguistic aspects as the expression in Norwegian: the idea of inclusion and emphasis in contrast to "også":

    ‘Dette gjelder til og med når’... ‘This is true even when [I’m out in the country]’ as opposed to

    ‘Dette gjelder også når’...’This is true also when I’m out…’ or ‘…when I’m in the countryside, too/as well’
     

    timtfj

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Yes, it is used emphatically in this context. I agree with Johan and Hanne that "even" is the most accurate translation for 'til og med' in this example, as it includes the same linguistic aspects as the expression in Norwegian: the idea of inclusion and emphasis in contrast to "også":

    ‘Dette gjelder til og med når’... ‘This is true even when [I’m out in the country]’ as opposed to

    ‘Dette gjelder også når’...’This is true also when I’m out…’ or ‘…when I’m in the countryside, too/as well’
    How does it compare with selv? "Dette gjelder selv når . . ."? Would you say it's the same, or a little more emphatic, or . . . ?
     

    timtfj

    Senior Member
    UK English
    I would consider it two different and unrelated meanings. That's what my "native feeling" says, anyway, and not based on any theoretical knowledge. "Til og med" meaning "even" is a fixed expression. "Til og med 20. september" is just two prepositions joined by og - in a combination that is use rather frequently, which is why I think the dictionary gave it as an example. "Until this date, and including it" (where "including" obviously isn't a preposition in English, but I'm sure you get the picture).
    That's what my non-native feeling was saying too---it seemed like a very different usage from the one in the dictionary. I think the most natural-but-still-literal English version of the meaning you're describing would be "up to and including".

    As I remember, the dictionary was giving examples where med signifies inclusion, with til og med and fra og med being two of them.
     

    bicontinental

    Senior Member
    English (US), Danish, bilingual
    How does it compare with selv? "Dette gjelder selv når . . ."? Would you say it's the same, or a little more emphatic, or . . . ?
    I would say that they are about equally emphatic, timtfj, (unless there's a significant difference between Norwegian and Danish usage in this case.) Maybe the natives will comment on that...
     
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