Nut chocolate or chocolate with nuts?

[liv-00]

I know that you can't say "pie with apples" - only "apple pie", because the filling or the special ingredient defines it... same about lemon chicken (not "chicken with lemon sauce") and sugar doughnuts (not doughnuts with sugar). but what about chocolate with nuts? is that correct and if it is, why?

 

[Florentia52]

Welcome to the forum, liv-00!

What would you be describing as "chocolate with nuts." I can't imagine ever saying "nut chocolate," but without more context, it's impossible to say for sure.

(For what it's worth, "lemon chicken" and "chicken with lemon sauce" sound like two different dishes.)

 

[liv-00]

I mean a block of chocolate with nuts inside it. As for "lemon chicken" it's a chinese food most popular in Australia - roast chicken breasts covered with lemon sauce... and they are called "lemon chicken"

 

[owlman5]

I mean a block of chocolate with nuts inside it.

Hi, Liv. This would be "chocolate with nuts" to me. I've never heard anyone use "nut chocolate" before.

 

[liv-00]

I know, but the thing is I'm an English tutor in Russia, so I have to explain to my students why you can say "chocolate with nuts" if the nuts are the filling inside the chocolate block, but you can't say "doughnuts with chocolate" if the doughnuts contain chocolate filling inside just like the chocolate bar contains nuts? What's the difference between them?

 

[owlman5]

There often isn't any real logic behind different expressions, Liv, but it might help you to explain that the chocolate in a block of chocolate with nuts is the main "stuff" in that candy. The nuts are added to provide a little extra texture and flavor. "Nut chocolate" would tell me that the chocolate was somehow derived or extracted from some kind of nut.* That doesn't make any sense.

*Chocolate is made from cocoa beans, but we don't ordinarily call them "nuts".

"Candied nuts" or "chocolate-covered nuts" are common expressions to describe nuts that have been dipped in a sugar solution or chocolate to give them extra flavor. Here, the nuts are the primary ingredient and the chocolate has been added to give the nuts a different taste.

 

[RedwoodGrove]

You can say "doughnut with chocolate filling". Americans don't normally say a "block" of chocolate. You would say a chocolate bar with almonds, etc. Yes, chocolate-covered is good, but there the preponderance of volume is in the nut. There is less chocolate than nut or peanut. Don't forget that a peanut is in fact a legume.

 

[sdgraham]

The ultimate answer to "why" in the English language is "because we say it that way," i.e. it's "idiomatic."

WordReference Random House Learner's Dictionary of American English © 2016
id•i•o•mat•ic /ˌɪdiəˈmætɪk/ adj.

1. Pathology that sounds natural and correct to a native speaker of a language

This is true for many expressions and when learners do not accept that and dither over finding a "rule" that does not exist, it will likely drive them "nuts." (Without the chocolate)

 

[Loob]

If we're thinking of bars of chocolate, we tend to be more specific about the nuts, I think: I'd happily talk about a "hazelnut chocolate bar". If I was talking about the substance such a chocolate bar was made of, though, I'd probably say "chocolate with nuts in".

----

Added. I'm wondering, given the previous answers, whether there may be a difference here between AmE and BrE?

 

[RedwoodGrove]

Yes, a hazelnut chocolate bar is good, if only we could find one over here.

This is true for many expressions and when learners do not accept that and dither over finding a "rule" that does not exist, it will likely drive them "nuts." (Without the chocolate)

Indeed there is no rule.

 

[Loob]

Yes, a hazelnut chocolate bar is good, if only we could find one over here....

Ah, do you not have chocolate bars with nuts in over there?

 

[srk]

Chocolate bars with hazelnuts are invariably imported, Loob. We say "Hershey's with almonds" and I would say "chocolate with hazelnuts." We have plenty of nuts.

 

[liv-00]

The ultimate answer to "why" in the English language is "because we say it that way," i.e. it's "idiomatic."

WordReference Random House Learner's Dictionary of American English © 2016
id•i•o•mat•ic /ˌɪdiəˈmætɪk/ adj.

1. Pathologythat sounds natural and correct to a native speaker of a language

This is true for many expressions and when learners do not accept that and dither over finding a "rule" that does not exist, it will likely drive them "nuts." (Without the chocolate)

How do I teach the language to foreign people with a different logic if there's no rule lol

 

[owlman5]

Ah, do you not have chocolate bars with nuts in over there?

We do, Loob, but hazelnuts are something of a luxury item over here, so they're not nearly as easy to find in a chocolate bar as other nuts like peanuts and almonds.

Cross-posted with srk and Liv.

 

[RedwoodGrove]

Ah, do you not have chocolate bars with nuts in over there?

At the risk of going off topic, mainly chocolate bars with almonds. Hazelnuts are a rarity. Peanuts are found in so-called clusters.

Scooped by owlman.

 

[RedwoodGrove]

I know, but the thing is I'm an English tutor in Russia, so I have to explain to my students why you can say "chocolate with nuts" if the nuts are the filling inside the chocolate block, but you can't say "doughnuts with chocolate" if the doughnuts contain chocolate filling inside just like the chocolate bar contains nuts? What's the difference between them?

But that is precisely what you do say:

Chocolate with X kind of nuts.
Doughnuts with chocolate filling.

 

[liv-00]

By the way, I would be grateful, if you gave me some other examples that define food with the WITH word. like "chocolate with nuts" etc. I believe, in the English language there are not too many such examples.

 

[liv-00]

But that is precisely what you do say:

Chocolate with X kind of nuts.
Doughnuts with chocolate filling.

How come Australians say "I bought some jam doughnuts" meaning doughnuts with jam inside?

 

[RedwoodGrove]

I would be grateful, if you gave me some other examples that define food with the WITH word

Scrambled eggs with bacon.
Sautéed asparagus with garlic and scallions.

 

[Myridon]

roast chicken breasts covered with lemon sauce... and they are called "lemon chicken"

I have a friend who likes the chicken in lemon chicken, but prefers the sauce from orange chicken so he orders "lemon chicken with orange sauce."

 

[owlman5]

We're really not allowed to create lists in the forum, Liv, but RG's examples are typical. If a dish is made of two or three main ingredients, it's pretty common to include those ingredients in the name of the dish.

 

[RedwoodGrove]

How come Australians say "I bought some jam doughnuts" meaning doughnuts with jam inside?

The default usage in English is to place noun before noun as if all but the last noun were adjectives. The reason Americans don't say "chocolate doughnuts" is because there are also chocolate covered doughnuts. In other words, ordinary doughnuts with a chocolate frosting. A filled doughnut is not the ordinary concept of a doughnut so it somewhat requires a special usage. American have traditionally been very particular about specifying doughnuts.

 

[ain'ttranslationfun?]

< --- > and as for why we say "jelly donuts" but not "chocolate donuts" (unless this is how they're described on the menu)...just sigh (inwardly! ) and say "It's a fixed expression." But if you ask "What kind of donuts do you have today?, " the answer might be "(We have) Jelly and chocolate."

< --- >

< Off-topic comments removed. Cagey, moderator >

 

[Cagey]

Reminder: The topic of the thread is what to call a candy made of chocolate and nuts.

Although done in an effort to be helpful, our compiling a list of food items in order to find an overarching rule is forbidden by forum rules.

Cagey, moderator.