Occitan: adieusas / a diù siatz / Adieu-siatz / Adishatz

deddish

Senior Member
English .ca
Hello,

I thought I heard a word somewhere that was a lot like "adieu" except it was a very, very firm final goodbye. I might be mistaken, or the word might be Provençal (Occitan), (or maybe even my mind mixing up Spanish and French now? Gaah!) but I believe it was similar to "adiosas" or something.

I did find "adieusas" a few places on Google, but nowhere with a definition...

Merci d'avance.
 
  • moe0204

    Senior Member
    Français
    En occitan, a diù siatz (mais la graphie et la prononciation varient de la Gascogne à la Provence) signifie littéralement adieu, mais est aussi utilisé pour au revoir.
     

    CDSM

    Member
    France, French
    In my native area, two (Gascon) Occitan words resemble a lot adieu:
    Adiou (pronounced Adi-ou with a strong emphasis on the last syllable) means either hello or goodbye.

    Adishatz (it's probably what moe0204 is talking about and it's one of the ways to write it) also means hello and goodbye, but is more widely used as just goodbye.

    Just for the record, in the Southwest (maybe also in the Southeast, maybe only in my area, I don't know), "adieu" and most of its Occitan forms are used as a way to say both hello and goodbye. :)
     

    Frogac

    New Member
    Français France
    Some people say "adieu" to say hello and goodbye in gascony.
    In my family, when they speak french, they pronunce [adieu], and they say [adiou] when they speak occitan.

    But if you say "Adieu" near Paris, Strasbourg, Brest, etc. people won't understand
     

    moe0204

    Senior Member
    Français
    Some people say "adieu" to say hello and goodbye in gascony.
    In my family, when they speak french, they pronunce [adieu], and they say [adiou] when they speak occitan.

    But if you say "Adieu" near Paris, Strasbourg, Brest, etc. people won't understand

    Yes, people will understand ! (They will understand you come from the South :D)
     

    orlando09

    Senior Member
    English (England)
    Interesting that forms of "adieu"can mean "hello" in some areas! Not illogical though, as it is presumably just a kind of blessing (God be with you, or something). In standard French I'd take this to be rather literary, but, as the first poster said, also with a ring of finality - like maybe not seeing the person ever again. I think this is also the feeling it used to have in English in Shakespearaian times (when, as not everyone knows, it was pronounced uhdyoo, not in the French way). I guess it can't always have been used in such a final way though.

    As an aside, I might mention "Goodbye" comes from the same idea originally (God be with you). French is much more hopeful of seeing the person again in "au revoir". In fact in some, slightly dated/cheesy English texts it's not uncommon to have a person say something like : "Goodbye.. or should I say 'au revoir'?" (meaning they look forward to seeing the person again, perhaps with a romantic meaning). "Farewell" is another more Anglo-saxon (and a bit less archaic) version of "adieu" in English.
     

    Punky Zoé

    Senior Member
    Pau
    France - français
    Where I come from, adiou is used for both while adishatz is only for goodbye, but I guess it depends on the regions :)
    Exactly the same, here. And there is a brand of tee-shirts called "Adishatz", here an excerpt of their website with an explanation about the word adishatz :
    "Pourquoi Adishatz ?

    Nous avons appelé notre gamme de vêtements adishatz car c'est probablement le mot d'Occitan de gascogne ( ou gascon ) qui nous revient le plus souvent aux oreilles à part « hilh de p.... ! » ou « diu vivant ! ».
    Littéralement, cela signifie « Adieu soyez ». « Adiu siatz » s'est contractée en " Adishatz si vous préferez, de par les particularités phonétiques de cette région d'Occitanie. Les languedociens disent plutôt adiussiatz, adissias ou adieussiatz commes les Provençaux, les Sud Alpins ou encore les gens de l'Auvergne, du Limousin.
    C'est une simple évolution du même mot dans un ensemble linguistique commun."
     

    pyan

    Senior Member
    English, UK, London
    Bernard Cerquiglini's did one of his little one minute chats about "adieu". He mentions the final, firm goodbye but also mentions different meanings in different parts of France. He speaks of these other uses with approval.
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    Hello!

    :arrow: If you open YouTube and find Caçadors de Paraules - L'aranès (part 2) and go to 5:00 min you'll hear an elderly man saying this in Aranese (Aranés), a variety of Gascon used in Aran Valley (Val d'Aran):

    Tu me dides "adiu" perque vau.. sò solet e jo didi "adishatz" perqué etz tres.

    'You tell me "adiu" because I'm alone and I say "adishatz" because you are three people'.

    That would mean that if they spoke using a more polite vos instead of tu, Roger Gràcia would have to say adishatz like in plural (vosautres).

    Caçadors de Paraules is a Catalan TV3 program.
    To find the 1st and the 3rd (last) part of this episode just change the number in the title.

    DISCLAIMER:
    I have no idea if jo is a catalanism or it is an Aranese (or maybe even Gascon) synomym of ieu (1st person singular pronoun).
    I made the transcription by ear, I don't know a lot about Gascon conjugation. I am sure "you say" is (tu) dides, unlike in Lengadocian which uses dises. The same for "I say" didi (Lengadocian disi).
    As far as I can hear he says etz and not sètz like in Lengadocian (I'm pretty sure it is a close e [e] (e barrada) and not an open one è (e dobèrta) because it sounds the same as in perque and tres.
    Corrections are welcome. :)


    :arrow: In the occitan online course offered by panOccitan.org (link) in Lengadocian from Tolosa (fr. Toulouse) they say adissiatz, the -ssia- part pronounced approximately with a sh [ʃ] sound (as far as I have noticed, they write sh in Gascon where the sound [ʃ] is omnipresent and ss in the rest of the dialects) and they write it Adieussiatz which would be a form respecting the etymology of the word because, according to the panOccitan.org dictionary God in Occitan is Dieu.

    At the beginning of the first lesson (Lo porgiment), Monsen Martin, the teacher, explains:

    « Adieussiatz, ‘bonjour’, se dis quand on vouvoie quelqu’un ou quand on s’adresse à un group de plusieurs personnes. »,

    that is, Adieussiatz :
    1) vos (second person formal form using plural verb endings)
    2) vosautres (second person plural)

    The thing is both of them use Adieussiatz although Monsen Martin doesn’t use vos while adressing Maidon, he uses tu. I guess it is a kind of mutual ("contagious") respect used between unequals (for example, an adult professor and a schoolgirl). I mean, if one person uses a formal form it implies the other one using formal (highly lexicalized) greeting and goodbye forms as well, while when it comes to verbal forms they stay informal (this kind of solution is normative in Polish, my mother tongue, I am not really sure how about French, the dominant language <?>).

    Adieussiatz. :D
     
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    todosmentira

    Member
    English - Southern English
    'ko vai bi pitchounet?

    I seem to remember when living in Catalunya that 'Adeu' was used for goodbye and also as a greeting when passing someone in the street - the funny thing was it was often shortened to 'deu', giving the impression that everyone is considered a god in Catalunya!

    I've never heard Occitan spoken despite spending a lot of time in Gard & Herault, although I've heard the odd phrase of 'patois' in the Auvergne; oddly enough Auvergnat seems to share some features with Catalan that I've not seen in other dialects of Oc closer to Spain, such as 'cal' for 'il faut / hace falta' - very puzzling.

    Can anyone tell me what the pronunciation of the tz is in Adieusiatz ? Also 'ch' as in 'fach' in Lengadocien ?
     

    CapnPrep

    Senior Member
    AmE
    Can anyone tell me what the pronunciation of the tz is in Adieusiatz ? Also 'ch' as in 'fach' in Lengadocien ?
    In principle, final "tz" is pronounced [ts], but is reduced to [s] or [t] in some regions. And final "ch" is pronounced [tʃ] (= French "tch", Catalan "tx") but is sometimes reduced to [ts] or [t].

    Also, the pronounciation of these engdings can be affected by a closely following word (they can become voiced, reduced, undergo assimilation, etc.)
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Some people say "adieu" to say hello and goodbye in gascony.
    In my family, when they speak french, they pronunce [adieu], and they say [adiou] when they speak occitan.

    But if you say "Adieu" near Paris, Strasbourg, Brest, etc. people won't understand

    This is very interesting. This seems to be quite similar to the Spanish spoken in the Basque country and in Catalonia; Spanish speakers often use "agur" and "adeu," respectively amongst each other, even though they may not speak Basque or Catalan.

    Frogac? Are you an Occitan/Gascon/Provençal speaker?
     

    lenny_lennartz

    New Member
    English - UK (Scottish)
    Could this be related to Catalan for good-bye, adéu-siau? This would seem to derive from "a Déu siau", where siau seems to be an old form of sigueu (be). Something like God be with you! or God protect you!
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    Could this be related to Catalan for good-bye, adéu-siau? This would seem to derive from "a Déu siau", where siau seems to be an old form of sigueu (be). Something like God be with you! or God protect you!
    That's right.

    In Catalan, Latin -TIS (2nd person plural ending) suffered more changes than in Occitan:

    -TIS > i disappears -TS > semiconsonantic -U [w] forming part of a diphtong,

    an example from Viquipèdia:

    MIRATIS → *miratzmiraumirau/mireu
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    I've heard « adesias » from elderly Provençaux sometimes...

    Adesias. This makes me wonder.
    In my native area, two (Gascon) Occitan words resemble a lot adieu:
    Adiou (pronounced Adi-ou with a strong emphasis on the last syllable) means either hello or goodbye.

    Adishatz (it's probably what moe0204 is talking about and it's one of the ways to write it) also means hello and goodbye, but is more widely used as just goodbye.

    Just for the record, in the Southwest (maybe also in the Southeast, maybe only in my area, I don't know), "adieu" and most of its Occitan forms are used as a way to say both hello and goodbye. :)

    The ‹iu› in adiu (or, written in the French manner, adiou) reflects the pronunciation I'm most used to (perhaps because so far I've gotten to hear mostly Gascon and Southern Languedocien), namely, [iw].

    The ‹sh› in adishatz is a spelling reflecting the pronunciation with [ʃ], normative in Gascon and quite widespread in Languedocien, that is with yod coalescence ([s] + [j] = [ʃ]). (Caution: The Subjunctive form is still spelled ‹siatz›, even in Gascon).

    The ‹i› in adishatz, pronounced , is the result of the contraction and fossilization processes (adiu + siatz).

    CapnPrep has already discussed the ‹tz› part (#20).

    ‹Adieussiatz› is the umbrella spelling covering all the possible variants. It is spelled with ‹ss› to represent the voiceless pronunciation with /s/ (be it [s] or [ʃ], or something in between), because intervocalic ‹s› is pronounced voiced, /z/.

    Now, the question is, does anybody across Occitània pronounce the -ieu- in adieussiatz as a triphthong, [jew], i.e., the way it is written? This question, naturally, goes to/is about those native speakers who pronounce Dieu as [djew].
     
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    ryba

    Senior Member
    :arrow: If you open YouTube, find Caçadors de Paraules - L'aranès (part 2), and go to 5:00 min, you'll hear an elderly man saying this in Aranese (Aranés), a variety of Gascon used in the Aran Valley (Val d'Aran):

    Tu me dides «adieu» perque vau.. sò solet e jo didi «adishatz» perque ètz tres.

    'You tell me "adieu" because I'm alone and I say "adishatz" because you are three'.

    That would mean that if they spoke using the more polite vos instead of tu, Roger Gràcia would have to say adishatz like in plural (vosautres).

    Caçadors de Paraules is a Catalan TV3 program.
    To find the 1st and the 3rd (last) part of this episode just change the number in the title.

    DISCLAIMER:

    • I have no idea if jo is a catalanism or an Aranese (or maybe even Gascon) synomym of ieu (1st person singular pronoun). :tick: It is Gascon. And not only. It's also to be found in other dialects.
    • I made the transcription by ear, I don't know much about Gascon conjugation. I am sure "you say" is (tu) dides, unlike in Lengadocian which uses dises. The same for "I say" didi (Lengadocian disi). :tick:
    • As far as I can hear, he says etz and not sètz like in Lengadocian (I'm pretty sure it is a close e /e/ (e barrada) and not an open one /ε/ (e dobèrta), because it sounds the same as in perque and tres.:cross: On second thought, it's ètz [εts], I can hear that now.

    What's more, the gentleman clearly says adieu [aðiew], with a triphthong, I didn't notice it the first time.
    The ‹i› in adishatz, pronounced , is the result of the contraction and fossilization processes (adiu + siatz).

    In that respect, what happened with a Diu siatz resembles phonotactically what happened in Central Catalan with si us plau, giving rise to the colloquial form sisplau:

    Adi(u)shatz (<a Dieu siatz)
    si(u)splau (< si us plau),

    ‹iu› [iw] > ‹i› .
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    To add to the diversity, there's also the Vivaro-Alpine adussiatz (with an [y]!):

    «adieu (=) adieu \ adieu-siatz (=), adiu-siatz, adu-siatz: au revoir, adieu. (Grange 2008: 46)»

    The author gives some details on the pronunciation:

    «La palatalisation de {k} et de {t} tend à faire confondre ces deux sons en un seul, soit proche de {kh} dans certains parlers, soit à l'opposé proche de {th} pour d'autres. De la même façon, -g- et -d- palatalisés se confondent soit en {gh} soit en {dh}.
    Devant ces même voyelles, {s} est chuinté dans quelques parlers.
    sus {süs}{shü} "sur"; civaa {siva}{shiva} "avoine", adieu-siatz {adhusha}{aghüsya}"adieu" (Grange 2008: 13)»

    I take «{adhusha}» and «{aghüsya}» to mean [adʒuˡʃa] and [aɟyˡsja], respectively, although I am not 100% sure about the exact value of the "dh" and "gh" allophones. In any case, Grange gives a short explanation of the symbols he uses (2008: 11), maybe someone else can make more out of it.

    (...) ‹Adieussiatz› is the umbrella spelling covering all the possible variants. It is spelled with ‹ss› (...) :cross:
    I'm sorry, I was wrong about the spelling of the classical/original form. According to the rules recommended by the CLO, it should be hyphenated (just like in Catalan). It's only the derived/compressed forms that lose the hyphen:

    «Lo jonhent s’emplega quand los mots compausats son formats de frasas que son pas limitadas a una forma verbala amb un sol mot complement: manja-pan-mosit, adieu-siatz, fug-l’obra, manja-quand-n’a. A costat de la forma classica adieu-siatz, de formas mai evoluidas s’escrivon soudadas (adissiatz, adishatz, adessiatz) [emphasis mine]» (CLO 2007: 54).

    Conselh de la Lenga Occitana. 2007. «Preconizacions del Conselh de la Lenga Occitana», Lingüistica occitana (Montpelhièr) 6. (http://www.revistadoc.org/file/Linguistica occitana 6 CLO.pdf) (darrièra consulta: 13 julh 2012).

    Grange, Didier. [2006] 2008. Lexique occitan — français du viraro-alpin au nord du Velay et du Vivarais. (http://www.marraire.com/Ressour/Lexique.pdf) (darrièra consulta: 14 agost 2011).
     
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