Occitan: pas

  • Joannes

    Senior Member
    Belgian Dutch
    Yes, it's obligatory. It's even more important than in French. In Occitan, pas carries the negation on its own whereas in (written) French there's also ne preceding the verb. Where you would have a negation ne ... rien 'nothing' or ne ... jamais 'never' in French (so without pas), you would have pas res or pas jamai in Occitan.

    (You know where this negation comes from, right? This was a previous discussion about it, and it was also mentioned in your own thread, here. :))
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Thanks very much Joannes! If I can make it up to France, I would like to know more Occitan, but I'm sure my terrible Catalan can suffice if need be. Thanks for answering me question.
     

    CapnPrep

    Senior Member
    AmE
    Hello, Joannes is correct about pas, but here are some unnecessary details:

    "On peut trouver en littérature une négation vieillie qui se construit en mettant non [nou] devant le verbe. Cette négation demeure cependant dans quelques expressions : ex. Non sai [nou saï], je ne sais pas." (L'occitan tout de suite ! p. 16)

    "Lo foissenc pòt emplegar ges e cap allòc de pas. Ex. : Non pòdi ges dire o pòdi ges dire. | Non vòli cap parlar." (Alibèrt, 3.XI)
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    Òc, Panja, es necessari, justament coma dins lo dialecte septentrional del catalan (~Catalunya Nord):

    Catalan septentrional:
    A: Parles occità?
    B: No, parli pas occità.

    Occitan:
    A: Parlas occitan?
    B: Non, parli pas occitan.

    Coma pòts veire, fòra de qualques expressions (coma escriguèt CapnPrep mai amont), en occitan general la paraula non es pas que (= 'es solament') un advèrbi negatiu (es a dire, lo contrari d'òc) e dins la frasa-eissemple es necessària la virgula (,).

    S'emplegava la negacion non en occitan classic, avuèi es abituala en qualques parlars gascons (sabi pas se en totes), per eissemple en aranés (legís la primièra frasa d'aqueste article). Al programa (catalan) Caçadors de Paraules - L'aranès (part 3) [YouTube] i a una anciana que ditz " Eths joens non parlan patoès." e es de Melles, França.

    Adissiatz!
     
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    ryba

    Senior Member
    Qualques correccions:
    Òc, Panja, es necessari, justament coma dins lo dialècte septentrional del catalan (~Catalonha Nòrd):

    Catalan septentrional:
    A: Parles occità?
    B: No, parli pas occità.

    Occitan:
    A: Parlas occitan?
    B: Non, parli pas occitan.

    Coma pòdes veire, fòra de qualques expressions (coma escriguèt CapnPrep mai amont), en occitan general la paraula non es pas que (= 'es solament') un advèrbi negatiu (es a dire, lo contrari d'òc) e dins la frasa-exemple es necessària la virgula (,).

    S'emplegava la negacion non en occitan classic, avuèi es abituala en qualques parlars gascons (sabi pas s'en totes), per exemple en aranés (legís la primièra frasa d'aqueste article). Al programa (catalan) Caçadors de Paraules - L'aranès (part 3) [YouTube] i a una anciana que ditz « E(th)s joeni non parlan patoès.» e es de Melles, França.

    Adissiatz!

    *eissemple (exemple), *dis (ditz) ->

    Aquelas decas d'ortografia son fruit del trabalh destructiu de l’Arve Cassinhac, autor del siti panoccitan.org e del diccionari oc-fr e fr-oc que s'i tròba.


    :warning: Estudiants d’occitan! Usetz pas jamai aquel diccionari o, al mens, l’utilizetz pas abans d'aver legit aquò (es una analisi critica del siti panoccitan.org faita per l’occitanista Sèrgi Granièr).

    Eng: Had I not checked the spelling of those words in the panoccitan.org dictionary before posting I wouldn't have made those mistakes (I managed to correct *dis soon after posting). Beware of that dictionary. It's author unlawfully used as a base a digital edition of Loís Alibèrt's posthumous Dictionnaire occitan-français d'après les parlers languedociens from 1966 to create his own version of "Occitan", a version full of linguistic nonsense his mind created, a comedy of errors made on purpose combined with some Alibèrt's untouched work to make the impression of a serious dictionary.
     
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    Alabrena

    New Member
    FR
    Beware of that dictionary. It's author unlawfully used as a base a digital edition of Loís Alibèrt's posthumous Dictionnaire occitan-français d'après les parlers languedociens from 1966 to create his own version of "Occitan", a version full of linguistic nonsense his mind created, a comedy of errors made on purpose combined with some Alibèrt's untouched work to make the impression of a serious dictionary.

    What a disgusting post, I have never seen that before.
     

    ryba

    Senior Member
    Curiosament, i a qualques expressions en occitan general ont s'utiliza la negacion amb non (1), per exemple que non sai:

    Son rics que non sai. [FONT] (~ They are so rich! / They are very/damn rich.)

    (1) EDIT: CapnPrep ja o mencionèt, o aviái doblidat. :)

    Seriá interessant de parar un còp d'uèlh sul fial Pas del fòrum Catalan, s'i parla un pauc de la negacion en occitan.

    Amistats.
     
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