occurrence by accidents = chance?

park12

New Member
Korean
"To decide whether a game is a game of skill, the law says that the skill must prevail chance and this is called a "predominance test." It means that there should be no occasion where an occurrence by accident brings winner or loser."

I also paraphrased "outcome" to "winner or loser" to help the audience understand.

For those of you who need some background of the sentence, it is the following:

For example, golf is a game of skill because skill always dominates over chance. Although sometimes a novice may win a professional golfer for a single hole, it is impossible for a novice golf player beats the professional player throughout the 23 holes. Therefore, golf if a game of skill. However, poker is a game of chance because chance dominates over skills especially when a player draws the card shuffled prior to playing the game, the luck or chance intervenes skills to determine the outcome.
 
  • Uncle Jack

    Senior Member
    British English
    Welcome to the forum.

    I don't understand what question you are trying to ask. The first sentence is fine, but it does not mean what the second sentence says it means.

    Furthermore, most versions of poker are games of skill rather than games of chance. Roulette is the perhaps the game most often cited as a game of chance.
     

    lentulax

    Senior Member
    UK English
    occurrence by accident = chance?

    I'd say not. 'Occurrence(s) by accident is not idiomatic; in any case, 'by accident' usually suggests lack of or contrariness to intention, whereas 'chance' covers a wider range (unpredictable as well as unintentional). The sudden gust of wind that blew my ball, which I'd chipped to within a foot of the hole, ten feet away into a pot bunker could not be described as an occurrence by accident, though it could be called a chance event. The cards I'm dealt are a matter of chance, not accident. If you want a more user-friendly version of 'no occasion where chance determines the outcome', something like 'no occasion when a chance event decides who wins or who loses', or 'no occasion when the winner or loser is decided by chance', 'no occasion when winning or losing depends upon/is a matter of/ chance'.
     

    park12

    New Member
    Korean
    occurrence by accident = chance?

    I'd say not. 'Occurrence(s) by accident is not idiomatic; in any case, 'by accident' usually suggests lack of or contrariness to intention, whereas 'chance' covers a wider range (unpredictable as well as unintentional). The sudden gust of wind that blew my ball, which I'd chipped to within a foot of the hole, ten feet away into a pot bunker could not be described as an occurrence by accident, though it could be called a chance event. The cards I'm dealt are a matter of chance, not accident. If you want a more user-friendly version of 'no occasion where chance determines the outcome', something like 'no occasion when a chance event decides who wins or who loses', or 'no occasion when the winner or loser is decided by chance', 'no occasion when winning or losing depends upon/is a matter of/ chance'.
    Thank you for your reply and kind examples. My follow-up question is associated with the "by accident" term. I have learned from some English grammar book that it literally means "by chance". How does occurrence by chance sound to you? If it sounds much clearer than "occurrence by accident" can I just go ahead and use it? Am I understanding correctly if the term, "accident" might create some notions of "literal meaning of accident" to people?
     

    park12

    New Member
    Korean
    Welcome to the forum.

    I don't understand what question you are trying to ask. The first sentence is fine, but it does not mean what the second sentence says it means.

    Furthermore, most versions of poker are games of skill rather than games of chance. Roulette is the perhaps the game most often cited as a game of chance.
    Thank you for your warm welcome to the forum. I am curious if I need to pay certain money to keep raising inquiries here?
    I am so sorry to cause confusion in my questions.
    With respect to the issue of whether poker is a game of skill or chance, I am only dealing with North Carolina's state law, which promulgates that it's illegal in the forum. I do not know much about what other jurisdictions would say, but I do know that Roulette is a legal game. There are many areas that I did not dig into and I am a learning novice.

    I appreciate your opinion though :)
     

    Lee Ann Sosa

    Senior Member
    English - US
    Can I correct a few mistakes in your paragraph?

    For example, golf is a game of skill because skill always dominates over chance. Although sometimes a novice may win beat a professional golfer for at a single hole, it is impossible for a novice golf player to beats (no "s") the professional player throughout the 23 holes. Therefore, golf if (is, not if) a game of skill. However, poker is a game of chance because chance dominates over skills (no "s") especially when a player draws the card shuffled prior to playing the game, so the luck or chance overrides skills (no "s") to determine the outcome.
     

    Uncle Jack

    Senior Member
    British English
    [
    I am curious if I need to pay certain money to keep raising inquiries here?
    Not at all. If you keep to the forum rules (see the pinned threads) we will be happy to try to answer whatever language questions you may have.
    I am so sorry to cause confusion in my questions.
    With respect to the issue of whether poker is a game of skill or chance, I am only dealing with North Carolina's state law, which promulgates that it's illegal in the forum. I do not know much about what other jurisdictions would say, but I do know that Roulette is a legal game. There are many areas that I did not dig into and I am a learning novice.
    Ah, okay. It is regulated differently in Britain.

    My follow-up question is associated with the "by accident" term. I have learned from some English grammar book that it literally means "by chance". How does occurrence by chance sound to you? If it sounds much clearer than "occurrence by accident" can I just go ahead and use it? Am I understanding correctly if the term, "accident" might create some notions of "literal meaning of accident" to people?
    "By accident" and "by chance" do overlap in meaning, and you could say that something unforeseen "happened by accident" or that it "happened by chance". I don't think we would use "accident" in relation to games of chance, though, because "chance" here has more of a mathematical meaning, where we would not use the word "accident".

    However we would not say "occurrence by chance" either - it would be a "chance occurrence". Furthermore being a game of skill does not mean that a chance occurrence can never create a winner or loser but that, as your first sentence says, "skill must prevail". Skill must always win out in the long run.
     

    lentulax

    Senior Member
    UK English
    My follow-up question is associated with the "by accident" term. I have learned from some English grammar book that it literally means "by chance". How does occurrence by chance sound to you? If it sounds much clearer than "occurrence by accident" can I just go ahead and use it? Am I understanding correctly if the term, "accident" might create some notions of "literal meaning of accident" to people?
    It's a matter of usage. 'By accident' and 'by chance' may sometimes be interchangeable, but not usually - 'by accident' suggesting, as I said, 'lack of or contrariness to intention', whereas 'by chance' suggests a greater degree of randomness. I can say I played the 2 of spades 'by accident' if I pulled it out of my hand instead of the intended Ace, which was next to it, but I wouldn't say that I played it by chance (if it meant anything, the latter would mean something like randomly taking a card from my hand - but it would never be used like that). 'By chance' and 'by accident' are adverbial phrases, not adjective phrases, so you can't use either to qualify a noun , so 'occurrences by chance' won't work; the adjective from 'accident' is 'accidental', and we use 'chance' itself as an adjective, so 'chance occurrence'; but if you want words which will help your audience to understand, I'd have thought that 'event' or 'happening' were more familiar words than 'occurrence' - hence my suggestion of 'chance event'.

    Don't be misled by State laws - I would never sit down to a game of poker unless the other players were novices like myself; and Roulette is 100% chance. A predominance test is based on whether the outcome of a game is most affected by skill or chance, which are both present in differing degree in most games. A game of skill almost always has some element of chance (not 'no occasion...').
    Edit : Cross-posted with Uncle Jack, who makes some of the same points.
     

    lentulax

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Am I understanding correctly if the term, "accident" might create some notions of "literal meaning of accident" to people?
    I forgot about this point - strictly, what you say doesn't make sense - but I think you have in mind one dictionary definition (amongst many) of 'accident' which does suggest an accidental event which causes injury etc, to people('road accident'), but it doesn't have this suggestion in a great many uses; usually the context makes clear what's intended, though it is worth keeping in mind as a learner to avoid any possible ambiguities.
     

    park12

    New Member
    Korean
    Can I correct a few mistakes in your paragraph?

    For example, golf is a game of skill because skill always dominates over chance. Although sometimes a novice may win beat a professional golfer for at a single hole, it is impossible for a novice golf player to beats (no "s") the professional player throughout the 23 holes. Therefore, golf if (is, not if) a game of skill. However, poker is a game of chance because chance dominates over skills (no "s") especially when a player draws the card shuffled prior to playing the game, so the luck or chance overrides skills (no "s") to determine the outcome.
    Hi Ms. Lee! Thank you for your extra help in correcting my grammars, mistakes, and a typo! By the way, I'd like to make sure that it is the writing that I have already got my final grade and I am clearing myself with this because I would not go against the forum policy here. But it is practical help indeed and I feel I am privileged to have this correction. This forum is awesome. I also feel that I should give back to this wonderful community with my Korean skills if anyone is interested in it.
    Could I replace "win someone over a game" to "beat someone at a game"?
     
    Last edited:

    park12

    New Member
    Korean
    It's a matter of usage. 'By accident' and 'by chance' may sometimes be interchangeable, but not usually - 'by accident' suggesting, as I said, 'lack of or contrariness to intention', whereas 'by chance' suggests a greater degree of randomness. I can say I played the 2 of spades 'by accident' if I pulled it out of my hand instead of the intended Ace, which was next to it, but I wouldn't say that I played it by chance (if it meant anything, the latter would mean something like randomly taking a card from my hand - but it would never be used like that). 'By chance' and 'by accident' are adverbial phrases, not adjective phrases, so you can't use either to qualify a noun , so 'occurrences by chance' won't work; the adjective from 'accident' is 'accidental', and we use 'chance' itself as an adjective, so 'chance occurrence'; but if you want words which will help your audience to understand, I'd have thought that 'event' or 'happening' were more familiar words than 'occurrence' - hence my suggestion of 'chance event'.

    Don't be misled by State laws - I would never sit down to a game of poker unless the other players were novices like myself; and Roulette is 100% chance. A predominance test is based on whether the outcome of a game is most affected by skill or chance, which are both present in differing degree in most games. A game of skill almost always has some element of chance (not 'no occasion...').
    Edit : Cross-posted with Uncle Jack, who makes some of the same points.
    It's a matter of usage. 'By accident' and 'by chance' may sometimes be interchangeable, but not usually - 'by accident' suggesting, as I said, 'lack of or contrariness to intention', whereas 'by chance' suggests a greater degree of randomness. I can say I played the 2 of spades 'by accident' if I pulled it out of my hand instead of the intended Ace, which was next to it, but I wouldn't say that I played it by chance (if it meant anything, the latter would mean something like randomly taking a card from my hand - but it would never be used like that). 'By chance' and 'by accident' are adverbial phrases, not adjective phrases, so you can't use either to qualify a noun , so 'occurrences by chance' won't work; the adjective from 'accident' is 'accidental', and we use 'chance' itself as an adjective, so 'chance occurrence'; but if you want words which will help your audience to understand, I'd have thought that 'event' or 'happening' were more familiar words than 'occurrence' - hence my suggestion of 'chance event'.

    Don't be misled by State laws - I would never sit down to a game of poker unless the other players were novices like myself; and Roulette is 100% chance. A predominance test is based on whether the outcome of a game is most affected by skill or chance, which are both present in differing degree in most games. A game of skill almost always has some element of chance (not 'no occasion...').
    Edit : Cross-posted with Uncle Jack, who makes some of the same points.
    Thank you so much!!
     

    park12

    New Member
    Korean
    [
    Not at all. If you keep to the forum rules (see the pinned threads) we will be happy to try to answer whatever language questions you may have.

    Ah, okay. It is regulated differently in Britain.


    "By accident" and "by chance" do overlap in meaning, and you could say that something unforeseen "happened by accident" or that it "happened by chance". I don't think we would use "accident" in relation to games of chance, though, because "chance" here has more of a mathematical meaning, where we would not use the word "accident".

    However we would not say "occurrence by chance" either - it would be a "chance occurrence". Furthermore being a game of skill does not mean that a chance occurrence can never create a winner or loser but that, as your first sentence says, "skill must prevail". Skill must always win out in the long run.
    Thank you so much for spending your valuable time for me and describing fully to help me understand!
     
    Last edited:
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