(Old) Greek words in Romanian

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robbie_SWE

Senior Member
Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
Mod edit - split from this thread.

ă is pronounced like e from English article the.
There are very few words in Romanian which have Greek origin. There are much more in Aromanian, for example...

However, most of the Romanian words related with classic fabric manufacturing are of Latin origin (aţă = line, iţă = shaft, lână = wool, pânză = cloth, fir = stitch etc.) (non-neologisms, of course). Some of the newest materials are of other origins (especially Turkic) but I can't figure out any of Greek origin, as far as I know.
Well this is news! Very many basic words in the Romanian language are of Greek origin, so your first statement doesn't really add up. But that's probably a different thread. ;)

:) robbie
 
  • OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    Very many basic words in the Romanian language are of Greek origin. ;)

    :) robbie
    Like what?

    Edit: Only 1.7% of Romanian words have a Neo-Greek origin. That's a few, considering the vocabulary standards. There are not words of Old Greek origin in Romanian, at least, not officialy.
     

    modus.irrealis

    Senior Member
    English, Canada
    I think it depends on your perspective. I checked words like biserică, preot, înger at that dexonline site and it seems to only mention Latin as the origin, but all three Latin words are borrowed from Greek. In fact, there were a lot of Greek words in later Latin that are widespread in the Romance language that are therefore both inherited and loanwords from Greek, but again, it depends on how you look at it.
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Depends on the Greek, I'm mostly talking about neo-Greek (contemporary) and if you want I can create a list.

    As it was pointed out by Modus.irrealis, many words attested to Latin are actually of Greek origin or have Greek cognates. And by the way; 1,7 % is still a significant number especially regarding the Romanian vocabulary (this means that appr. 5250 Romanian words are of Greek origin, a number that is probably much higher than any other Romance language) (N.B. this is probably disregarding the myriad of Greek terminology used in psychology, medicine, law and other domains and sciences).

    Respectfully,

    :) robbie
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    Depends on the Greek, I'm mostly talking about neo-Greek (contemporary) and if you want I can create a list.

    As it was pointed out by Modus.irrealis, many words attested to Latin are actually of Greek origin or have Greek cognates. And by the way; 1,7 % is still a significant number especially regarding the Romanian vocabulary (this means that appr. 5250 Romanian words are of Greek origin, a number that is probably much higher than any other Romance language) (N.B. this is probably disregarding the myriad of Greek terminology used in psychology, medicine, law and other domains and sciences).

    Respectfully,

    :) robbie
    Well, many of the Latin words have old-Greek origins. If you put it that way, then, of course, you'll probably significantly raise the number. But that's not the point, isn't it?
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Like what?
    Like:

    VERBS
    folosi (+ folosire, folosit, folositor, folos) = to use
    ofta (+ oft, oftare) = to sigh
    lipsi (+ lipsit, lipsă, lipsire) = to miss, to lack
    pedepsi (+ pedeapsă, pedepsit) = to punish
    diafendisi = (old word) to defend
    călăuzi (+ călăuză) = to lead

    NOUNS
    patimă (+ compătimi, pătimi) = deep love
    aht = sigh
    oraş (N.B. cognate with the Old Greek baros) = city
    polite = city
    hartă = map
    drum (+ îndruma) = way (like a street)
    stol = flock (birds)
    cărămidă = brick
    pat = bed
    buzunar = pocket
    pantalon = pants
    măteasă (apparently) = silk
    farfurie = plate
    lin = a wooden barrel used for wine-making
    verighetă = a ring
    chir (chiră) = sir (mrs.)
    cocon (cocoană) = sir (mrs.)

    ADJECTIVES
    proaspăt = fresh
    ieftin (+ ieftini) = cheap

    ADVERB
    agale = calmly

    VEGETABLES, FRUITS, HERBS & PLANTS/TREES
    sparanghel = asparagus
    ţelină = celery
    anghinare = artichoke
    conopidă = cauliflower
    fasole = (string) beans
    spanac = spinach

    portocală (+ portocal, portocaliu) = (fruit) orange, orange (colour)
    caisă (+ cais) = apricot
    aguridă = small grapes
    lămâie (+lămâi) = (fruit) leamon

    mărar = dill
    cimbru = thyme

    trandafir = rose
    chiparos = cypress
    castan (+ castanie) = chestnut

    In retrospect, many Romanian words have Greek counterparts due to derivations from other languages or Greek words that have entered the Romanian language through other languages e.g.

    bamă (= okra), bostan (= pumpkin), maghiran (= marjoram), dafin (= laurel), afin (= blueberry), zmeur/zmeură (= raspberry), cedru (= ceder), hamamelis (= witch-hazel), amigdală (= amygdala), cale (= road), săpun (= soap), caimac (= cream), sictir (= to buzz off), babă (= crone), bălaur (= dragon), căpcăun (= mythical creature with a dog’s head), apatrid (= stateless), cadă (= bathtub), bumbac (= cotton), baltă (= puddle),
    hai/haide (= “come on”)

    (-the months were passed on from Greek through the Eastern Orthodox Church, along with a lot of religious terminology

    (-many animals e.g. elefant, delfin, rinocer, hipopotam etc.)

    Conclusion: apparently many vegetables, fruits, herbs and plants in the Romanian language come from Greek, alongside with many everyday words.

    Aaah…quite exhausted now! :eek: These are only some of the words I could think of from the top of my head. There are many more!

    Hope this cleared things up OldAvatar!

    Respectfully,

    :) robbie
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    No, it doesn't clear it up at all. By contrary, I'm a bit disapointed by your conclusion.
    Some of the Romanian words presented don't have Greek etymology (oraş, a ofta, hartă, drum, haide, căpcăun, caimac, cedru, bumbac, afin, balaur, zmeu and many others...), others don't exist at all (diafendisi; polite - what language is this?).
    I found your list being, at least, a form of sophism (just to keep the discussion in the field of Greek words :)
    I agree with the fact that some of the vegetables and fruits names are of Greek origin because this kind of food was brought by Greek traders. But that doesn't mean there are a lot of Greek words in Romanian. They are just a few, considering the fact that Greek princes (Fanariots) ruled Vallachia for almost 200 years.
     

    modus.irrealis

    Senior Member
    English, Canada
    Well, many of the Latin words have old-Greek origins. If you put it that way, then, of course, you'll probably significantly raise the number. But that's not the point, isn't it?
    What did you mean then by saying that "There are not words of Old Greek origin in Romanian, at least, not officialy?"
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    What did you mean then by saying that "There are not words of Old Greek origin in Romanian, at least, not officialy?"
    Romanian dictionaries do not use Old-Greek as reference when it comes to etymology because there is a huge gap in history between the use of Old Greek and the appearance of Romanian language, as a separate Romance language (probably about 1000 years). So, that's why, for any word of Greek origin, they especially mention that it comes from New Greek and not from the Old Greek.
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    I don't know what more to say to make you see that the Greek language is a vital part of basic Romanian. The list just keeps going!

    I speak the same language you do OldAvatar!

    POLITÍE, politii, s.f. (Înv.) 1. Activitate, practică politică, afaceri politice. 2. Oraş. – Din ngr. politía.


    Sorry for my typo, didn't realise it until now. Kind of ate an “i”.

    diafendisi (-sesc, -it), vb. – A apăra, a proteja. – Var. diafendefsi. Ngr. διαφεντεω, aorist διαφεντευσα (Gáldi 169; Tiktin).
    They might be “livresc”, but they still exist.

    oraş = could be from Hungarian város, but acording to this article it's still open for discussion (Greek baros).
    a ofta = from oft, which is derived from aht (Greek áhti)
    hartă = Greek hártis
    drum = according to the English Wiktionary δρόμος (drómos)
    haide = Cf. Greek áide
    căpcăun = from cap+ câine (after Greek kinokefalos)
    caimac = Cf. Greek ϰαïμάϰι (kaimáki)
    cedru = Cf. kedros
    bumbac = Cf. βόμβυξ
    afin = derived from the Greek word δάφνη (dáfin)
    balaur = Cf. πελώριον (pelórion)
    zmeură = Cf. σμέουρον (sméuron)

    I never stated that all the words I presented were inherently Greek. Many of them are actually Turkish but exist in both Romanian and Greek, making the 1,7 % you mentioned in one of your previous posts quite fallacious.

    Respectfully,

    :) robbie
     

    modus.irrealis

    Senior Member
    English, Canada
    Romanian dictionaries do not use Old-Greek as reference when it comes to etymology because there is a huge gap in history between the use of Old Greek and the appearance of Romanian language, as a separate Romance language (probably about 1000 years). So, that's why, for any word of Greek origin, they especially mention that it comes from New Greek and not from the Old Greek.
    Thanks -- I see what you mean, although it still seems to me like an odd way to look at things -- I mean Romanian has a direct link to Latin and it's fairly arbitrary to decide when it stopped being Latin and started being Romanian (compare Greek where the same word is used for the entire history of the language) so I don't see why you wouldn't say Romanian borrowed the words from Greek -- it's not like it borrowed them from Latin (since it is Latin and hence just kept them). But now that you've explained it, I understand that point of view.
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    oraş = could be from Hungarian város, but acording to this article it's still open for discussion (Greek baros).
    a ofta = from oft, which is derived from aht (Greek áhti)
    hartă = Greek hártis
    drum = according to the English Wiktionary δρόμος (drómos)
    haide = Cf. Greek áide
    căpcăun = from cap+ câine (after Greek kinokefalos)
    caimac = Cf. Greek ϰαïμάϰι (kaimáki)
    cedru = Cf. kedros
    bumbac = Cf. βόμβυξ
    afin = derived from the Greek word δάφνη (dáfin)
    balaur = Cf. πελώριον (pelórion)
    zmeură = Cf. σμέουρον (sméuron)

    I never stated that all the words I presented were inherently Greek. Many of them are actually Turkish but exist in both Romanian and Greek, making the 1,7 % you mentioned in one of your previous posts quite fallacious.

    Respectfully,

    :) robbie
    Well, the fact that those words are in both languages, Greek and Romanian doesn't mean they are of Greek origin:

    a ofta, oftare is from an onomatopoeia (of)
    căpcăun is from Cap (Latin origin)+ câine (Latin origin)
    hartă is from Latin carta
    cedru is from Latin cedrus, actually it is a neologism, it was borrowed via French
    caimac is Turkish
    afin hasn't got anything to do with dafin :)
    and so on...

    The presence of Greek words in Romanian is insignificant. Well, if we're talking about Aromanian, that is indeed, a different story. Aromanian language has been much more influenced by Greek language and it is now hardly recognisable as a Romance language.

    Edit: Now I see that you consider the Greek contribution in basic Romanian as being vital. Well, I guess it's time for me, then, to leave the discussion as it is ...
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    Thanks -- I see what you mean, although it still seems to me like an odd way to look at things -- I mean Romanian has a direct link to Latin and it's fairly arbitrary to decide when it stopped being Latin and started being Romanian (compare Greek where the same word is used for the entire history of the language) so I don't see why you wouldn't say Romanian borrowed the words from Greek -- it's not like it borrowed them from Latin (since it is Latin and hence just kept them). But now that you've explained it, I understand that point of view.
    It is not necesarily my point of view. I just noticed that fact in Romanian dictionaries and I asked myself the same thing you did. Some gave me that reason and I took it as it is...
     

    jaxlarus

    Senior Member
    Greek (el-CY)
    I was quite intrigued by this list of Greek loans, to be honest... Some I did recognize as Greek, but others are of foreign origin. I'll try to take them one by one, if this is possible...


    VERBS
    folosi < όφελος = profit, use
    ofta < Probably from 'of' but can't claim is Greek
    lipsi < έλλειψη = lack
    pedepsi < παιδεύω, παίδευσις = to torture, originally to educate
    diafendisi < διαφεντεύω, διαφέντευση < lat. defendo < gr. δια+αφέντης
    călăuzi < κολαούζος < tur. kılavuz = guide [not Greek]

    NOUNS
    patimă < πάθημα? (mısfortune); πάτημα? (footstep). Anyway, far from meaning 'deep love'
    aht = can't claim the exclamation 'ah' is of Greek origin!
    oraş < tur. varoş = city suburb [not Greek]
    polite < πόλις = city
    hartă < χάρτης = map, originally paper.
    drum < δρόμος = street
    stol < στόλος = fleet
    cărămidă < κεραμίδι < κεραμίς = tile
    pat < ?
    buzunar < ?
    pantalon < fr. pantalon
    măteasă < μετάξι = silk
    farfurie < ?
    lin - the only connectıon I could make is with λινός (wine or olive press). The word however is only used in Cyprus as far as I know and its etymology is of classical Greek, I suppose.
    verighetă < ? Sounds of Italian origin

    chir (chiră) < κύριος = lord, sir, mr.
    cocon (cocoană) < κοκόνα < rom. cocoană [not Greek!]

    ADJECTIVES
    proaspăt < πρόσφατος = recent
    ieftin < φτηνός < ευθηνός = cheap

    ADVERB
    agale < αγάλι = slowly, calmly

    VEGETABLES, FRUITS, HERBS & PLANTS/TREES
    sparanghel < σπαράγγι < ασπάραγος
    ţelină < σέλινο
    anghinare < αγκινάρα
    conopidă < κουνουπίδι
    fasole < φασόλι < φάσηλος < lat. phaselus, of Umbric origin
    spanac < σπανάκι < lat. spinaceum < pers. aspanah

    portocală < πορτοκάλι < it. portogallo
    caisă < καϊσί < tr. kayısı [not Greek]
    aguridă < αγουρίδα = sour (not ripe yet) grape
    lămâie < λεμόνι < it. limone < pers. limun

    mărar < μάραθος? = fennel. Dill is άνηθος.
    cimbru < ? Thyme is θυμάρι < θύμος

    trandafir < τριαντάφυλλο
    chiparos < κυπαρίσσι < κυπάρισσος
    castan < κάστανο

    As for the other words, some of them are actually Greek:
    bamă - μπάμια < tur. bamya
    bostan - μποστάνι = (vegetable) garden < tur. bostan
    maghiran - μαντζουράνα < ven. mazorana < lat. maiorana < lat. amaracus < αμάρακος
    dafin < δάφνη
    afin - ? I can't think of a word used in Greek for 'blueberry' sounding like that.
    zmeur - σμέουρο < ? sounds slavic
    cedru < κέδρος
    hamamelis < αμαμηλίς
    amigdală < αμύγδαλο
    cale - ? I can't think of a word used in Greek for 'road' sounding like that. Kaldırım in Turkish however means sidewalk / pavement. Kale is a castle, but quite irrelevant.
    săpun < σαπούνι < σάπων < lat. sapo, of Celtic origin.
    caimac - καϊμάκι < tur. kaymak
    sictir - σικτίρ < tur. siktir [Not as light as 'buzz off' in Turkish, mind you. The mainland Greeks use it 'lightly', but it's extremely offensive if used in Cyprus]
    babă -
    μπάμπω < slavic babo (of baba)
    bălaur - the only world I found sounding like this μπαλαούρο, not meaning dragon but store-room of a ship.
    căpcăun - no Greek counterpart, no idea of origin.
    apatrid < άπατρις
    cadă < κάδος = tub, bucket
    bumbac - βαμβάκι < pers. pampa(k)
    baltă - μπαλτάς < tur. balta = axe (not meaning puddle)

    hai/haide - άντε < άιντε < άιτε < άετε < άγετε < άγω. Used in many languages in the region, but originally Greek

    The animals are Greek yes.
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Well, the fact that those words are in both languages, Greek and Romanian doesn't mean they are of Greek origin:

    a ofta, oftare is from an onomatopoeia (of) (well, it depends...look here)
    căpcăun is from Cap (Latin origin)+ câine (Latin origin) (agree, but the mythical creature and its name is Greek)
    hartă is from Latin carta (no, you're confusing it with carte "book")
    cedru is from Latin cedrus, actually it is a neologism, it was borrowed via French (the Latin got if from Greek)
    caimac is Turkish (yes, the Cf. stands for "confer", meaning that it exists in both langauges)
    afin hasn't got anything to do with dafin:) AFIN Arbust scund cu fructe comestibile. – Mr. afin. Lat. daphne, din gr. δάφνη „laur“ (still hasn't?)
    and so on...

    The presence of Greek words in Romanian is insignifiant. Well, if we're talking about Aromanian, that is indeed, a different story. Aromanian language has been much more influenced by Greek language and it is now hardly recognisable as a Romance language
    You can't call over 5250 words insignificant! I agree that Aromanian has a greater influence, but for a Romance language, Romanian IS highly influenced by Greek even in basic words like cheap, road, use, punish, miss/lack etc. And as I said, a lot of the academic terminology is not present in that number so the lexical similarity would probably be even greater.

    robbie
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    You can't call over 5250 words insignificant! I agree that Aromanian has a greater influence, but for a Romance language, Romanian IS highly influenced by Greek even in basic words like cheap, road, use, punish, miss/lack etc. And as I said, a lot of the academic terminology is not present in that number so the lexical similarity would probably be even greater.

    robbie
    As I said, I leave it as it is. Your judgement is based too much on presumtions and I don't want to go on with this.

    Edit: See Swadesh list for Aromanian and Romanian words and see the etymology, for example:

    http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_Swadesh_a_limbii_aromâne
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    I was quite intrigued by this list of Greek loans, to be honest... Some I did recognize as Greek, but others are of foreign origin. I'll try to take them one by one, if this is possible...


    VERBS
    folosi - doesn't ring a bell (from ófelos)
    ofta - either... (what about áhti?)
    lipsi < έλλειψη = lack
    pedepsi < παιδεύω, παίδευσις = to torture, originally to educate
    diafendisi < διαφεντεύω, διαφέντευση < lat. defendo < gr. δια+αφέντης
    călăuzi < κολαούζος < tur. kılavuz = guide [not Greek] (but Romanian took it from Greek :))

    NOUNS
    patimă < πάθημα? (mısfortune); πάτημα? (footstep). Anyway, far from meaning 'deep love' (nono...it's from páthima)
    aht = can't claim the exclamation 'ah' is of Greek origin!
    oraş < tur. varoş = city suburb [not Greek]
    polite < πόλις = city
    hartă < χάρτης = map, originally paper.
    drum < δρόμος = street
    stol < στόλος = fleet
    cărămidă < κεραμίδι < κεραμίς = tile
    pat < ? (from pátos)
    buzunar < ? (from buzunára)
    pantalon < fr. pantalon
    măteasă < μετάξι = silk
    farfurie < ? (from farfuri)
    lin - the only connectıon I could make is with λινός (wine or olive press). The word however is only used in Cyprus as far as I know and its etymology is of classical Greek, I suppose.
    verighetă < ? Sounds of Italian origin (yeah, it exists in Italian too, but there should be a Greek word verghéta)
    chir (chiră) < κύριος = lord, sir, mr.
    cocon (cocoană) < κοκόνα < rom. cocoană [not Greek!]

    ADJECTIVES
    proaspăt < πρόσφατος = recent
    ieftin < φτηνός < ευθηνός = cheap

    ADVERB
    agale < αγάλι = slowly, calmly

    VEGETABLES, FRUITS, HERBS & PLANTS/TREES
    sparanghel < σπαράγγι < ασπάραγος
    ţelină < σέλινο
    anghinare < αγκινάρα
    conopidă < κουνουπίδι
    fasole < φασόλι < φάσηλος < lat. phaselus, of Umbric origin
    spanac < σπανάκι < lat. spinaceum < pers. aspanah

    portocală < πορτοκάλι < it. portogallo
    caisă < καϊσί < tr. kayısı [not Greek] (came to Romanian from Greek though)
    aguridă < αγουρίδα = sour (not ripe yet) grape
    lămâie < λεμόνι < it. limone < pers. limun

    mărar < μάραθος? = fennel. Dill is άνηθος.
    cimbru < ? Thyme is θυμάρι < θύμος (from Greek thymbra)

    trandafir < τριαντάφυλλο
    chiparos < κυπαρίσσι < κυπάρισσος
    castan < κάστανο

    As for the other words, some of them are actually Greek:
    bamă - μπάμια < tur. bamya
    bostan - μποστάνι = (vegetable) garden < tur. bostan
    maghiran - μαντζουράνα < ven. mazorana < lat. maiorana < lat. amaracus < αμάρακος
    dafin < δάφνη
    afin - ? I can't think of a word used in Greek for 'blueberry' sounding like that. (there shouldn't be...it's an indigenous creation :D)
    zmeur - σμέουρο < ? sounds slavic (well, the Romanian word is said to be indigenous, but similar words exist in all the Balkans)
    cedru < κέδρος
    hamamelis < αμαμηλίς
    amigdală < αμύγδαλο
    cale - ? I can't think of a word used in Greek for 'road' sounding like that. Kaldırım in Turkish however means sidewalk / pavement. Kale is a castle, but quite irrelevant. (in my dictionary it says that the Latin callis entered Greek as ϰαλειά)
    săpun < σαπούνι < σάπων < lat. sapo, of Celtic origin.
    caimac - καϊμάκι < tur. kaymak
    sictir - σικτίρ < tur. siktir [Not as light as 'buzz off' in Turkish, mind you. The mainland Greeks use it 'lightly', but it's extremely offensive if used in Cyprus]
    babă -
    μπάμπω < slavic babo (of baba)
    bălaur - the only world I found sounding like this μπαλαούρο, not meaning dragon but store-room of a ship. (the Greek word πελώριον)
    căpcăun - no Greek counterpart, no idea of origin. (what about kinokefalos?)
    apatrid < άπατρις
    cadă < κάδος = tub, bucket
    bumbac - βαμβάκι < pers. pampa(k)
    baltă - μπαλτάς < tur. balta = axe (not meaning puddle)

    hai/haide - άντε < άιντε < άιτε < άετε < άγετε < άγω. Used in many languages in the region, but originally Greek

    The animals are Greek yes.
    Very interesting! Thank you Jaxlarus! I made some changes, you might want to take a look.

    As I said, I leave it as it is. Your judgement is based too much on presumtions and I don't want to go on with this.
    I can only say that the feeling is mutual and I will leave it at that. I have many times had the same feeling towards your judgement in many questions concerning Romanian words of Slavic origin and the only thing we can do now is to agree to disagree.

    :) robbie
     

    jaxlarus

    Senior Member
    Greek (el-CY)
    ofta < άχτι < tur. ahd(etmek) < arabic ahd
    patimă < πάθημα = misfortune
    aht < again from tur. ahd(etmek) < arabic ahd
    pat < πάθος = passion

    buzunar < ? (from buzunára)
    farfurie < ? (from farfuri)
    A mainland Greek, and specially one from the north of Greece could maybe shed some light on these two. Judging by their sounds, they are not of Greek origin. Buzunar reminds me of ζωνάρι (= girdle) though.

    verighetă < ? Sounds of Italian origin
    (yeah, it exists in Italian too, but there should be a Greek word verghéta)
    βέρα (= engagement ring) < venetian vera

    cimbru < ? Thyme is θυμάρι < θύμος (from Greek thymbra)
    Can't find the word anywhere


    cale - ? I can't think of a word used in Greek for 'road' sounding like that. (in my dictionary it says that the Latin callis entered Greek as ϰαλειά)

    This is purely of latin origin, cf sp. calle. Καλειά could mean a road but it's only used rarely and only in the phrase 'πάω καλειά μου' - going my way, doing my business. Not listed in any dictionary.

    bălaur - the only world I found sounding like this μπαλαούρο, not meaning dragon but store-room of a ship.
    (the Greek word πελώριον)
    If indeed it derives from πελώριο = huge, well, it's a new one on me!

    căpcăun - no Greek counterpart, no idea of origin.
    (what about kinokefalos?)
    κυνοκέφαλος is purely Greek. But the word was inherited in Romanian by the latin counterpart.
     

    Frank06

    Senior Member
    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    Cool down, guys. Nobody wins anything in this kind of discussions. Certainly not the members who are not involved in the ongoing quarrel (and that is everybody except you two).

    If you really want to start to bicker and verbally kick each others' *ss, you can stuff each others' mail boxes, but not this forum.

    This thread is closed until further notice.

    Frank
    Moderator EHL
     
    Status
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