What is the origin of using verbs zu sein and zu haben in German when forming past tense? Can it be traced to Proto-Germanic and PIE or is it German innovation?

Moderator note (14 months later):
As perfect forms constructed with to be and to have are not specifically German but occur in many Germanic and Romance languages, the scope of this thread has been extended to the origin of these forms in all Germanic and Romance languages.

 

Hi,

It's not the first time we ask this, but:
- could you please elaborate on your question,
- could you please give examples (then we don't have to guess what you mean),
- could you please formulate a hypothesis yourself, or at least give an idea of what you think about it (otherwise we start to have the impression we're doing your homework),
- could you please do at least some basic research yourself (you'll find out it's not restricted to German, etc.).

And, by the way, nobody ever died from saying 'hi', 'bye' and 'thank you'.

Thank you.

Frank
Moderator EHL

 

What I mean by zu sein and zu haben is this. German would say Ich bin gegangen and Ich habe gegessen. German would use word zu sein if the verb has motion attached to it. Auxiliary verbs like zu sein and zu haben are used when forming past tense. Of course you could form past tense in German without using these auxiliary verbs.
I don't know if it's restricted to German. English doesn't use auxiliary verbs when forming past tense. If it would be using than an Englishman would say I am went which a German says.
In English one can use auxiliary verbs for forming past tense like in German, but that wouldn't be past tense but past perfect, and that has nothing to do with German, since I'm interested in past tense.
I would like to know why would German use the verb zu sein if the verb has motion attached to it. However, according to my knowledge, Slavic languages do have some special verb forms when verb has motion attached to it, especially Slovene. In Slovene when the verb has motion attached to it the verb loses final -i. So in Slovene it would be wrong to say Pojdi delati 'Go to work', but you should say Pojdi delat. To be more precise verb of motion affects the verb after it.
I was asking if you could trace back the phenomenon to Proto-Germanic and PIE so I could know the history of it. Since it's peculiar to me why would Germanic languages use auxiliary verbs when forming past tense. English can also use German equivalent of zu haben but only in past perfect. Because English will always use zu haben in past perfect whether it be motion or not.

 

French, Italian, and Dutch have a very similar thing:

Fr: J'ai mangé.
It: Ho mangiato.
Du: Ik heb gegeten.

Fr: Je suis allé(e) au cinéma.
It: Sono andato/a al cinema.
Du: Ik ben naar de bioscoop gegaan.

And so on and so forth.

 

Some languages have morphological suffix for past tense, like Slavic languages. Although Slavic languages use verb to be as an auxiliary in forming past tense, there are some exceptions, like in Croatian.
A: Jesi li pojeo? (Did you eat?)
B: Pojeo. (I ate/I have eaten.)
Notice here you don't need auxiliary verb and it is past tense. What I'm interested is in your Dutch forms. Notice heb, ben gegaan, where you need zu sein and zu haben in order to form past tense. In Croatian you don't need Ja imao pojeo 'I have eaten, literally' as you would need in German. But German has something special if there is a verb of motion following which English doesn't.
Ich bin fahren. *I have driven. sein+have, if we were to follow the rules English would have I am driven in this sense, which is ungrammatical.
Ich bin gegangen English *I am went, but you would say I went. I am talking about auxiliary verbs zu haben and zu sein and their usage. You could also say in German Ich ginge/Ich fahrte, but that's not what I'm talking about.
I am wondering why would you need auxiliary forms and morphological suffixes for saying exact same things. Forming past tense. That doesn't go for English since past perfect uses auxiliary have, and that's another formation and it differs from past tense. And I'm particularly interested why zu sein for the verb of motion and why use an auxiliary verb?
I may have made a commotion with this post. But now I've found out that many languages use auxiliary verb for forming past tense, but they have forms when they don't need auxiliary verbs for past tense. For instance, Slavic languages need auxiliary verb to be when forming past tense.

 

Hi,

Except of course when you say it loud .

More seriously, this is a related question.

Edit: French j'ai mangé is litterally I have eaten, although it often translates I ate. Ai is auxiliary avoir, present tense.

 

As my aunt very aptly says, "Ninguém dá o que não tem".

 

Yes, you've got me there, for saying no relation.

 

Finally someone who knows his stuff. Yes, I've mixed that up with English.

 

I think I get it, and I understand "...zu sein" is similar to "...to be" and possibly "...is"

example:

Frei zu sein = To be free


(This is about as complicated a concept as I can grasp at this stage)

 

Also, not all romance languages can make the past perfect (preterito perfecto) using the verb corresponding to to be (sum in Latin).In Spanish you use allways the auxiliary verb "haber" yo he ido....etc.
Also in clasical Latin the auxiliary sum is used as auxiliary only to form the passive, although in deponent verbs can have an active meaning.
So maybe after all the influence could have been from Germanic to French and Italian rather than the other way rounde.

 

English has an analogous structure:

I have to sing.

I'm not sure if the French construct means the same as the English construct, which only indicates obligation, and not futurity, but in any case I think it's not a long way from the notion of obligation to the notion of futurity.

 

In Spanish, where agreement between participle and object in such constructions has been abandoned long ago, we can however say "tengo leídas dos novelas" = "he leído dos novelas" (I've read two novels), which makes clear its origin.

 

Without going into to much detail, the similarity in grammatical structural use of tenses or verbal forms, such as use of auxiliaries with perfective verb forms, probably has nothing to do with being a "Germanic or Romance" language. Rather, this is an aerial characteristic of many European languages--especially West European--these languages tend to maintain the distinct use of "to be" or "to have" as auxiliaries for that go with the past perfect form of the verb (marking transitivity or intransitivity of the verb). Interestingly, Spanish and English have lost the use of "to be" here--they are geographically on the edge of this region, and not right in it so maybe this could be expected. Look into a concept called "Sprachbund"--this seems to be a manifestation of this. By that interpretation, talking about Germanic or Romance, or Martian, for that matter, is irrelevant since it would have to do more with geographical location.