Origin of the modern Greek ʦ

ahvalj

Senior Member
Modern Greek surnames rather often contain the sound ʦ, e. g. among the members of parliament we find Κόλλια-Τσαρουχά, Τσακαλώτος, Τσανάκα, Τσιάρας, Τσίπρας, Τσίρκας, Τσουκαλάς (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(2015)), Τσαβδαρίδης, Τσούκαλης and Τσουμάνης (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(Ιούνιος_2012)). What is the origin of this affricate? Is it a dialectal outcome of k, kj, t and tj?
 
  • fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Many Greek surnames are in fact Turkish, with τσ for Turkish ç, and τζ for Turkish/Persian/Arabic c. Or Albanian. Or Vlach. Or Venetian. Or Bulgarian....
     
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    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Modern Greek surnames rather often contain the sound ʦ, e. g. among the members of parliament we find Κόλλια-Τσαρουχά, Τσακαλώτος, Τσανάκα, Τσιάρας, Τσίπρας, Τσίρκας, Τσουκαλάς (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(2015)), Τσαβδαρίδης, Τσούκαλης and Τσουμάνης (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(Ιούνιος_2012)). What is the origin of this affricate? Is it a dialectal outcome of k, kj, t and tj?
    Or Τσιουτσιας.
     

    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Many [ts] are a latin influence. e.g. Κύθηρα > Cirigo > [τσιρίγο]. Some [ts] seem to have been developed in local dialects from the [ki]. It is characteristic of the Kretans to pronounce as [tsi] the diminutive suffix -ki. Other ts are from turkish or slavonic (e.g. tsopanis = shepherd). A Greek-made ts is the contruction of syllables where a vowel is between t and s, in rural dialects. For example χαιρέτησα > χαιρέτ'σα (Ι saluted). Greek declination makes words long, and informal shortenings are common.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    One example from your list: Τσαβδαρίδης < Turkish çavdar < Persian jawdar “rye”, with Greek suffix -ίδης.
     

    apmoy70

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Modern Greek surnames rather often contain the sound ʦ, e. g. among the members of parliament we find Κόλλια-Τσαρουχά, Τσακαλώτος, Τσανάκα, Τσιάρας, Τσίπρας, Τσίρκας, Τσουκαλάς (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(2015)), Τσαβδαρίδης, Τσούκαλης and Τσουμάνης (https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κατάλογος_Ελλήνων_βουλευτών_(Ιούνιος_2012)).
    Τσούκαλης < Ιt. zucca (pumpkin), metaph. for big-headed, Tσουμάνης < (possibly) Tur. çıman (painter).
    What is the origin of this affricate? Is it a dialectal outcome of k, kj, t and tj?
    Yes, tsitacism is a dialectal feature in MoGr:
    ByzGr «δεκανίκιον» > MoGr «δεκανίκι» (crutch) > Megaran dialect «δεκανίτσι»
    ByzGr «καττούλιον» (kitten) > Cretan dialect «κατσούλι»
    Koine «βοῦττις» (vessel in the shape of the frustum of a cone) > Corfian dialect «βουτσί» (barrel).
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Leaving aside the Turkish or Italian borrowings, what was the chance of words with dialectal phonetic traits to become officially registered surnames? I am asking this because in many countries the surnames had to be approved by the church or official instances, and as a result they were often brought in accordance to the literary standard.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Greek
    As far as I know, there is not such a problem in Greece. I think the first (Christian) names have to be approved by church not surnames.
     

    apmoy70

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Even emperors (during the Byzantine Empire) had family names with dialectal phonetic traits, e.g «Ἰωάννης Τσιμισκῆς» [ʦ͡imiˈscis], «Ἀλέξιος Μούρτζουφλος» [ˈmurʣ͡uflos], it's no big deal in Greece.
    As far as I know, there is not such a problem in Greece. I think the first (Christian) names have to be approved by church not surnames.
    And the church respects local trends e.g the first name «Τσαμπίκος/Τσαμπίκα» [ʦ͡amˈbikos] (male), [ʦ͡amˈbika] (female) from the island of Rhodes, named after the local cult of Παναγία Τσαμπίκα (akin to Lourdes, or Montserrat)
     

    Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    I am puzzled with the Greek surname Tsioutsias. In Poland I had a work colleague named Ciucias /Tsiutsias/. Is the Greek Tsioutsias from Slavic, or Ciucias from Greek?
     

    apmoy70

    Senior Member
    Greek
    ^Is he from Corfu by any chance?
    Τσιούτσια or τσούτσα is the dummy (i.e the plastic nipple given to infants) in the Corfiat dialect (I have no idea if it's Greek or a loanword)
     
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