Other > change ?

[ThomasK]

In Dutch and German 'to change' (both to make different and to change as such) is related with 'other'. I'd like to know if that is the case with you too, or what kind of verb you use in order to translate 'to change' (and perhaps why). [I suggest we do not discuss 'differ(ence)' here except if 'other' and 'different' are the same word in your language]

Dutch/ German:ander > veranderen/ (sich) ändern
Dutch: wijzigen (< wijze, mode, way, manner)
German: wandeln, sich verwandeln ?

English/ French : other/ autre --- change (completely different origin)
id.: modify/ modifier (< mode, < Lat. modus, manner)

from L. cambire "to exchange, barter," of Celtic origin, from PIE base *kamb- "to bend, crook" (with a sense evolution perhaps from "to turn" to "to change," to "to barter").

So: how about your language?

 

[jazyk]

(An)other in Portuguese is outro, from Latin alter, which ultimately gave rise to Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan alterar, French altérer, Italian alterare, Romanian altera, German alterieren, and English alter, among others.

 

[Rallino]

Turkish:

Başka : other
Başkalaşmak : to transform/alter

 

[ThomasK]

I must admit I had forgotten about alter, altérer. Of course you're right. Do you use other words like modifier or something the like as well? And how about Czech ?

@Rallino: do you also use other verbs with other roots ?

 

[sakvaka]

Also in Finnish.

muu - other, else
muuttaa - change (tr.)
muuttua - change (intr.)

 

[ThomasK]

Any alternatives as well, Sakvaka?

 

[jazyk]

Do you use other words like modifier or something the like as well?

Sure: mudar, cambiar, trocar, modificar, etc.

 

[Fericire]

Sure: mudar, cambiar, trocar, modificar, etc.

"Alterar" too!

 

[Rallino]

@Rallino: do you also use other verbs with other roots ?

Yes, we do. We have the verb "değişmek (intr.)" to change, and "değiştirmek (tr.)" to change sth. But the root of this is "değiş-" which shares the same root as 'değişik' = different.

 

[ThomasK]

Great, I see !

 

[jazyk]

"Alterar" too!

See post 2.

 

[apmoy70]

In Greek:
Other-->«Άλλος, -η, -ο» ('alos m./'ali f./'alo n.), Classical pronoun «ἄλλος, ἄλλη, ἄλλο» ('āllŏs m./'āllē f./'āllŏ n.) with identical meaning, PIE base *al-, beyond.
Change-->«Αλλαγή» (ala'ʝi f.), Classical «ἀλλαγὴ» (ăllā'gē f.), from verb «ἀλλάσσω» (ăllā'ssō)-->to exchange, alternate, change, in modern Greek «αλλάζω» (a'lazo); PIE base *al-, beyond

 

[bibax]

Czech:

other: jiný, jiná, jiné from *j-oinos (*oinos), related to Latin unus;

to change: měnit (změnit, vyměnit, proměnit, zaměnit, směnit, ...) from the root *moin-, related to Latin com-munis and German ge-mein;

jiný and měnit are not related.

Měnit primarily means to interchange, to barter, to swap, wechseln, and secondarily to make different.

Another verb: na-hrad-it (*grad-, *gheld-) = to replace; related to German ver-gelten;

 

[ThomasK]

Yes, we do. We have the verb "değişmek (intr.)" to change, and "(tr.)değiştirmek " to change sth. But the root of this is "değiş-" which shares the same root as 'değişik' = different.

One question then: can you replace one change verb by the other ? I think there is no transitive verb based on differ in English. I mean: we can say that something differs from the other, but not that I differ [make different] something from the other - we can only distinguish, but that is not the same verb. değiştirmek is not 'to distinguish', is it? Could you explain how you use it ?

 

[Selyd]

In Ukrainia:
міняти – to change
заміняти - to replace
замінювати, замінити, позамінювати - to replace
видозмінювати - to alter
переміняти, перемінити - one on another
змінювати, змінити - to exchange
перемінювати, переміняти, поперемінювати - one on another
переінакшувати, переінакшити - to make by another, to different
заступати, заступити - one on another
заміщати, замістити - one on another
перетворювати, перетворити, поперетворювати - to transform
обмінювати, обміняти - to barter

змінюватися, змінитися
видозмінюватися
позмінюватися
перемінюватися, перемінитися, поперемінюватися (It is a lot)
перетворюватися, перетворитися, поперетворюватися (It is a lot)
etc.

 

[sakvaka]

Any alternatives as well, Sakvaka?

Yes, at least vaihtaa/vaihtua and kääntää/kääntyä.

vaihtaa/vaihtua
- swap between states
- replace with sth else
- give up sth, let go of sth / put sh else to use
- exchange: give something to someone and receive something from them

muuttaa/muuttua
- affect a property (internal or external), the details or the contents of sth

kääntää/kääntyä
- lit. turn
- only in a few fixed expressions
- Tilanne kääntyi parempaan suuntaan. The situation turned for the better.

 

[ThomasK]

@Selyd: thanks. I would however not consider 'replace' a synonym of 'change'. But am I seeing the same stem in it ? (Is it /mierti/ ???)

@Sakvaka: would you consider them synonyms? I think the muuttua definition is the correct one, but I must admit we could perhaps ) use veranderen in the meaning of kääntyä as well...

 

[Favara]

(An)other in Portuguese is outro, from Latin alter, which ultimately gave rise to Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan alterar, French altérer, Italian alterare, Romanian altera, German alterieren, and English alter, among others.

This relationship between both words is even more obvious in Catalan, since "other" is altre.
("Another" would be un altre, literally "an other". I never noticed that.)

 

[bibax]

Ukrainian міняти [minyati] is the same verb like Czech měniti = to change.

The verbs переінакшувати, переінакшити [pere-inakš-iti] are related to інакші/інші [inakši/inši] = other (in Czech jinakší, jinší = other, different).

 

[ThomasK]

Thanks for your information! I'd like to refer to an earlier message;

Czech:

other: jiný, jiná, jiné from *j-oinos (*oinos), related to Latin unus;

to change: měnit (změnit, vyměnit, proměnit, zaměnit, směnit, ...) from the root *moin-, related to Latin com-munis and German ge-mein;

Is that j- a negative prefix ?

The interesting thing is that apparently there is a link between change and exchange, barter, etymologically, somehow semantically. At first sight that is strange to me...

 

[sakvaka]

@Sakvaka: would you consider them synonyms? I think the muuttua definition is the correct one, but I must admit we could perhaps ) use veranderen in the meaning of kääntyä as well...

They are not perfect synonyms, even if they are both translated into English as 'to change'.

Voitko vaihtaa tuon rikkinäisen lampun? Can you change that broken lamp?
Ilmanpaine muuttuu nopeasti pyörremyrskyn silmässä. Air pressure changes quickly in the eye of a tropical cyclone.
Isäni vaihtaa vaihteita liian nopeasti. My dad changes up and down too quickly (when driving a car).

Often, though, there's only a faint difference:

En ole muuttanut mielipidettäni (or: mieltäni). I haven't changed my opinion. (eg. there are no changes in it)
En ole vaihtanut mielipidettäni. I haven't changed my opinion. (eg. my opinion is the same, and I haven't replaced it with another)

Here, 'muuttaa' is probably a bit better because muuttaa mieltään is a fixed expression.

Liikennevalo vaihtui äsken punaiseksi. The traffic light just turned red. (eg. it was green, but now it's red, there was a swap between the two states)
Liikennevalo muuttui äsken punaiseksi. The traffic light just turned red. (eg. there was a change in its colour)

Here, 'vaihtaa' is probably a bit better because traffic lights don't change their colours but one colour is set off and another is set on.

 

[ThomasK]

Thanks a lot for these interesting considerations. I must point out though that in my view 'replace' and 'change' are not real synonyms, which appears from the fact that they behave differently syntactically, I think: replace implies a by + other 'substance', whereas changing refers to the substance of the subject itself. I wonder whether I am right...

 

[sakvaka]

If I change my keyboard layout to Greek, I'm replacing it with something else, aren't I?

When I say 'replace', I don't mean the actual verb but rather the idea of letting go of something and getting something else instead. We have the independent verb to replace, ie. korvata. But it takes the adessive case while vaihtaa is used with illative/(translative).

 

[ThomasK]

well, you are - but I am not so sure though. I agree: I think the original meaning is non-metaphorical, and refers to substitution. Interesting to hear one verb is not the other. But I have to run now. Sorry !

 

[Rallino]

One question then: can you replace one change verb by the other ? I think there is no transitive verb based on differ in English. I mean: we can say that something differs from the other, but not that I differ [make different] something from the other - we can only distinguish, but that is not the same verb. değiştirmek is not 'to distinguish', is it? Could you explain how you use it ?

Do you mean if we can use "değişmek (intr.)" and "değiştirmek (tr.)" interchangeably? — We can't.

Ex:
1. Konuyu değiştirdim : I changed the topic.
2. Konu değişti : The topic (has) changed.

Note that in the first example I used 'konuyu' — that is accusative.



P.S. To distinguish = ayırt etmek, comes from the verb ayırmak - to separate (tr.). So we say: To render two things (more) separate from one another, so that each detail is clearly visible.

 

[ThomasK]

Perfect information. So one değiş- is a causative verb of the other...

But I am not so sure I understand the explanation concerning distinguish : 'to distinguish' in Turkish is a variant (...) of 'to separate', you mean?

 

[er targyn]

In Kazakh to change is өзгеру (özge-r-), to change smth. - өзгерту (özge-r-t-), from өзге (özge) "other, different". The -t- affix is causative.

 

[ancalimon]

Yes, we do. We have the verb "değişmek (intr.)" to change, and "değiştirmek (tr.)" to change sth. But the root of this is "değiş-" which shares the same root as 'değişik' = different.

We also have "DİĞER": Other (from Persian or Middle Persian I guess)

 

[ThomasK]

But no DİĞER-verb, I believe. Or do you ?

 

[ancalimon]

But no DİĞER-verb, I believe. Or do you ?

Not on its own. We would need suffixes and I'm not sure whether it would be suitable for this word or not.

Still we have DEĞİŞ which means "to change, to alter, to convert, to alternate,...". I don't know if Diğer (other) and Değiş (to change) are related or not.

Tuncer Gülensoy's Turkish etymology dictionary gives me the following:

Değiş < *teg (ulaşmak, erişmek ; to reach, to achieve, to achieve, to attain..., "also to touch")

I add this: denk: equal, match, reflection, coherent

We also have DEĞER: value (both price and Value judgment), worth, supreme quality-property-attribute, person of great merit. It also means "it touches, it fulfills, it reaches, it achieves, it's worthy"

The plus sign in a circle was one of these DEĞER. It's also related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys

This part is my own idea. I think DEĞER and DEĞİŞ are strongly related and maybe are related to umm deg, degire, teker, döngü: round, the circle, the wheel, looping. And also the + sign inside the circle in which the two gamma signs are "others" opposites of each other.

also found this: Bulg. > Hung. tµk£r 'mirror' http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response..._any=tekirme&method_any=substring&sort=number

I also think "ters" (reverse, opposite, inverse) could be related to diğer (other)-değiş (change) as well

Note: sorry for unnecessary information
​

 

[ThomasK]

Great information, don't worry. But is there no difference between the di- and the de- adjective? For example: one is 'other', the other means 'different'? (I don't know, just enquiring) Can you substitute one by the other?

I don't understand the labrys symbolism though: I see an axe, not a circle and a plus/ circle. But I d'love to understand !

 

[vianie]

Is that j- a negative prefix ?

That's not, in any case. Its origin has more prosaic background, which is most probably related with the development of Czech phonetics. But bibax knows better.

 

[bibax]

That j- is the so-called pro(s)thetic consonant. Proto-Czech (and generally Common Slavic) didn't love hiatus and avoided it by adding an extra consonant (usually j-, v- or h-) to the words beginning with a vowel. There are only few (cca 10) Czech words beginning with a- and i- and no Czech word beginning with e-.

 

[ancalimon]

Great information, don't worry. But is there no difference between the di- and the de- adjective? For example: one is 'other', the other means 'different'? (I don't know, just enquiring) Can you substitute one by the other?

I don't understand the labrys symbolism though: I see an axe, not a circle and a plus/ circle. But I d'love to understand !

I don't think di and de can be substitutes. Unfortunately I don't have any such knowledge.

The + sign in a circle is the same thing as a labrys if you look closely.

They are both + or x signs. The labrys repserents ruling by authority. (as in who holds the axe cuts the head) But in Turkic culture, the X represented masculinity and femininity in a symbiosis. The V is the female representation and the reserve V is the male one. It represented superiority and authority of only and only Tengri (the God) over every other thing.

I think someone made the labrys and the + sign some kind of masculine-male superiority and also related it with labyrinth and mind-memorization.

 

[ThomasK]

Thanks, Vianie and Bibax, the reason for my j-question was that 'unus', one, is the one meaning that I would not expect as a basis of the word 'other'. You see?

Thanks for the extra o+v information, ancalimon!

 

[bibax]

Thanks, Vianie and Bibax, the reason for my j-question was that 'unus', one, is the one meaning that I would not expect as a basis of the word 'other'. You see?

The Czech jiný (Proto-Slavic *inъ = other, anderer, alius) is basically PIE *oinos (cf. unus, eins, one), after some phonetic changes. The meaning 'other' evolved from such sentences like

one sows, one reaps;
one sows, another reaps;
some sow, others reap;
others sow, others reap (= alii - alii in idiomatic Latin);

The Czech cardinal numeral jeden (= one) is from PS *edinъ, from PIE *ed-*oinos.

 

[ThomasK]

Really, that is amazing to me. But OK, that's the way we learn! (Just BTW: are you quite sure? ;-))

 

[bibax]

(Just BTW: are you quite sure? ;-))

Professor Václav Machek (a Czech prominent linguist/etymologist, 1894-1965) was quite sure.

In any case, the PIE *oinos evolved into Proto-Slavic *inъ (meaning 'other', NOT 'one'). It is for sure.

(ъ is so-called hard yer, a back vowel, probably ultra short u)

 

[ThomasK]

Great information, and I certainly did not feel like calling in your knowledge in doubt !

 

[francisgranada]

Hungarian

más other
másik another
második second

**************************
másít change, alter, modify (trans.)
másol makes a copy (trans.)

vált change, exchange (also money)
változik change (intrans. becomes different)
változtat change (trans. makes different)

cserél change, exchange, replace

módosul modify (intransit.)
módosít modify (transit.)

1. The Hung. verbs are in 3rd pers. sg.
2. All the verbs are used also with various prefixes
3. Másít is used less frequently the other verbs

 

[ThomasK]

So do you count: first, második, three (Google T: első, második, harmadik)? But what is your other verb for chaning besides Másít ?

Just BTW: what does the -ik mean? And: don't your 3rd pers. have the same endings?

 

[francisgranada]

So do you count .... első, második, harmadik? ...

Yes (OT, but the word second used to be derived from other words than two in many laguages, e.g. English, Slavic, Romance ...)

But what is your other verb for chaning besides Másít ?

változik, változtat ... or what's question?

Just BTW: what does the -ik mean? And: don't your 3rd pers. have the same endings?

-ik is the 3rd pers. sg. ending only in some verbs. Typically, the 3rd pers. sg. has no ending in the indefinite conjugation.
-ik in case of másik (egyik, szebbik etc...) is an other thing (OT to be discussed here)

 

[mataripis]

Tagalog: To change= Baguhin, to make changes= magkaroon ng pagbabago, cause changes= maging dahilan ng pagbabago, changeable= pabago-bago, change in position= magbago ng tayo' o posisyon. The word " Baguhin" has root word " Bago" means "New".

 

[ThomasK]

That is interesting. Don't you have a separate word for other though, or for different?