outrage [pronunciation]

zzzwor

Senior Member
Chinese
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In the word outrage, in American English I found, that the two letters t and r are pronounced separately rather than merged together as a /tr/.

Interesting.
 
  • kentix

    Senior Member
    English - U.S.
    Out·rank.

    Out doesn't combine when it carries its own separate meaning, which it almost always does.

    The only exception I can think of where it doesn't is ou•tré, which comes rather directly from French, I assume.
     

    Linnets

    Senior Member
    Daniel Jones states [ˈaʊtreɪdʒ, -ɪdʒ]. No mention of syllable break between t and r. But yes, outrange is [ˌaʊtˈreɪn(d)ʒ] so I think it's the same.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    Yes, outré is the past participle (in French) of the French verb outrer (oo-trer), which comes from the Latin ultra (ul-tra).

    So outré is not "out"+"re".
     

    kentix

    Senior Member
    English - U.S.
    Daniel Jones states [ˈaʊtreɪdʒ, -ɪdʒ]. No mention of syllable break between t and r. But yes, outrange is [ˌaʊtˈreɪn(d)ʒ] so I think it's the same.
    There is no mention of a syllable break at all, but there obviously is one.
     

    Keith Bradford

    Senior Member
    English (Midlands UK)
    Are there syllable breaks in English? I'm not sure that I pronounce the central cluster differently in outrage and portrait; nor does the syllabification sound different, as if there were a pause or a glottal stop in outrage that doesn't exist in portrait.

    Is that what that hyphen is supposed to indicate in #1? What phonetic alphabet is that?
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    Are there syllable breaks in English?
    Unless you speak every word with one syllable there are.
    You can have multiple syllables without "breaks" between them.

    I'm not sure that I pronounce the central cluster differently in outrage and portrait; nor does the syllabification sound different, as if there were a pause or a glottal stop in outrage that doesn't exist in portrait.
    This makes sense to me.

    the merger of /tr/ or /dr/ into an affricate only happens when they're in the same syllable.
    This "merger into an affricate" does not happen in my dialect. The sequence /tɹ/ never becomes an affricate. The /t/ and the /ɹ/ do not have "the same place of articulation", which an affricate has.

    Of course English 'R' is /ɹ/ in IPA notation, not /r/. The sound represented by IPA /r/ does not exist in English.
     

    Linnets

    Senior Member
    Of course English 'R' is /ɹ/ in IPA notation, not /r/. The sound represented by IPA /r/ does not exist in English.
    Yep, but many authoritative pronuncing dictionaries use that notation, for the sake of readability. The same is true for French and German [ʁ], often represented by simply [r]. Of course I prefer the more precise transcription.

    webster dictionary.
    My Webster (Merriam-Webster Könemann) uses \ˈau̇t·ˌrāj\ .
     
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    Keith Bradford

    Senior Member
    English (Midlands UK)
    ...My Webster (Merriam-Webster Könemann) uses \ˈau̇t·ˌrāj\ .
    So the hyphen (-) after the "t" in #1 is a mid-height point (·) in MW? But what does it represent? Is it a pause, a glottal stop, some other stop...?

    That's the crux of what we're discussing isn't it? Whether the word outrage has some kind of different "thing" between its two syllables that the word portrait (for example) doesn't. I don't hear it and I don't think I pronounce it.

    There is no such symbol on the International Phonetic Alphabet chart - Wikipedia, though there is a stop on the line (.) called a syllable break which separates vowels in different syllables. The example given is /ᴊi.ækt/. But that's not the same as separating the "tr" in our examples.
     

    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    So the hyphen (-) after the "t" in #1 is a mid-height point (·) in MW? But what does it represent? Is it a pause, a glottal stop, some other stop...?
    In some American dictionaries, there are dots between the syllables for the purpose of breaking lines in fully justified text. For typing:
    This is an out-
    rage.
    not
    This is an ou-
    trage.

    Regardless, if you heard someone shouting or singing on staccato notes, wouldn't you expect:
    THIS... IS... AN... OUT... RAGE...!
    rather than
    THI... SI... SA... NOW... TRAGE...!
     

    Keith Bradford

    Senior Member
    English (Midlands UK)
    Fine. I don't know why those dictionaries choose non-standard symbols, but fine. Next question: what is a syllable break?

    I contend that in spoken English there are no syllable breaks. We normally pronounce polysyllabic words, phrases and even sometimes sentences without pauses. (In sung English there are, no doubt -- see #20. I'm not musical and won't comment further.)

    In written English, syllable breaks exist only at the ends of certain printed lines. This is important: there is a big difference between look-ing and loo-king. But it's a spelling issue, not a pronunciation one.
     

    Myridon

    Senior Member
    English - US
    (In sung English there are, no doubt -- see #20. I'm not musical and won't comment further.)
    The point has nothing to do with music per se, but due to the fact that we know that "out" and "rage" are meaningful units within the word. Dividing it into "ow" and "trage" will just make the listeners wonder what a trage is and why the singer's trage hurts.
     

    kentix

    Senior Member
    English - U.S.
    There are clearly syllables in speech. So there must be transitions between them. The difference is that some of those are clearly well-defined but many are flexible and can shift and merge based on the sentence, the adjoining sounds, the stress and the speaker. So it's not hard and fast in every case and even in many cases. But to say they don't exist is stretching things way too far.

    There is a baseball term referring to part of the playing area called the outfield. There is only one possible break there and it clearly separates two syllables. "Out" is one idea and "field" is another. Out ends in an unreleased t. Speech stops flowing and then begins again with field.

    In American English, a stop in syllable-final position is typically realized as an unreleased stop; that is especially the case for /t/​

    Ou tfield is not possible.
    Outf ield is not possible.

    The only possibility is out field.
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I'm not sure that I pronounce the central cluster differently in outrage and portrait; nor does the syllabification sound different, as if there were a pause or a glottal stop in outrage that doesn't exist in portrait.
    I agree. the merger ETB talks about is rather... elusive and, I suppose, depends on speed.

    When I see* nitrate and night rate, the difference is one of stress - the central cluster is only affected if I deliberately separate the two words of night and rate.

    * I meant say, of course, not see.
     
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    Wordy McWordface

    Senior Member
    SSBE (Standard Southern British English)
    When I see nitrate and night rate, the difference is one of stress - the central cluster is only affected if I deliberately separate the two words of night and rate.
    I don't see it that way. I don't think the stress is different. In normal speech, I stress /naɪt/ in both nitrate and night rate and I don't make an obvious break between the syllables. The pronunciation difference, for me, is what happens to the middle /t/. In night rate, my brain knows that the /t/ is the end of a syllable, so I use something approaching a glottal stop. In nitrate, I'm aware that the /t/ is the beginning of the second syllable, so I merge it with the 'r'. I agree with ETB about this.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    For me, portrait has a 'T' and outrage has a glottal stop.
    It is the same for me, in my NewEnglandish dialect.

    It's same as the difference between nitrate and night rate.
    Which one uses a glottal stop?

    Whenever I say "nitrate", I emphasize the "TRA" part. I clearly say "nigh-trait".

    I don't know why. Perhaps some traumatic accident in Chemistry 101...?
     

    Wordy McWordface

    Senior Member
    SSBE (Standard Southern British English)
    Which one uses a glottal stop?

    Whenever I say "nitrate", I emphasize the "TRA" part. I clearly say "nigh-trait".

    I don't know why. Perhaps some traumatic accident in Chemistry 101...?
    I use a glottal stop - or something close to one - at the end of night when I say night rate. The syllable break comes after night.

    I don't use one in nitrate. Like you, I divide nitrate into two syllables as "nigh" and "trait", and I merge the /t/ and the /r/ together. I don't think the stress pattern is significant here. I think that the phoneme realisation is the same whether you stress the first syllable (as I do) or the second (as you do).
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    In this post we have the words

    (i) outrage, outside, outdoors, outride, outrank, outrangeˌ outfield all of which are out + noun/verb. There seems to be no mystery here.

    (ii) hat-rack, flat rate, night rate, which are two words that are evolving via a hyphen into what will become one word.

    (iii)(a) nitrate, = nitr- + -ate

    (iii)(b) Portrait = por + trait < French trait, in obsolete French traict , tret , draught, stroke, touch, line.

    The split occurs with the original component words.
     
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