Panjabi: تیرے کلیجے نون لونڑ لا کے کھاواں !

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I hope friends familiar with Punjabi will be able to join in this thread and help me to understand the verb format of the following sentence, which is a statement and not a question.

    تیرے کلیجے نوں لونڑ لا کے کھاواں

    I have no one in mind when I am citing the above example! My iron and salt level is there or thereabouts.:) I am curious how one would depict the tense for کھاواں into English. What English sense would this sentence conjure up in your mind ?
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  2. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    How about "I should season your liver and eat it!" I'm translating the subjunctive mood at "I should." Thoughts?
  3. shahmukhi New Member

    تسی پہلے ایہہ دسو ایتھے نمک لکھ رہے ہو یا سالن مطلب ہے؟
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ "I have no one in mind when I am citing the above example! My iron and salt level is there or thereabouts.:)"
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you PG SaaHib for your interpretation. My question would be this. Would you feel totally comfortable with your English expression?
  6. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    شاید ایہہ جملا اینج لکھیا جا سکدا اے:
    تیرے کلیجے نوں لوڻ لاء کے کھاواں

    کہ کوئی غلط فہمی نا روے۔ لوڻ مطلب نمک
    لوںڑ وی چنگا اے!۔
  7. shahmukhi New Member

    تیرے کلیجے نوں لُون لا کے کھاواں

    ایہہ اک خواہش ہے ایس لئی انگریزی ایداں ہونی چاہی دی ہے۔

    I wish I could eat your liver with salt.
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This leaves Alfaaz and Marrish SaaHiban. Any views gents?
  9. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I'd agree with PG SaaHib in his description of this verbal formation (subjunctive), which is used on its own in the simple sentence, not as a subjunctive in a related clause. In this function I believe it can be translated as:

    Would that I'd eat up your liver with a good pinch of salt!
    I'm feeling like eating up your liver with a good pinch of salt!
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
  11. shahmukhi New Member

    میرے خیال وچ ایہہ جمع نہیں ہے ، کلیجہ نوں اِمالَہ کیتا ہوا ہے۔
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    .او بادشاہو، پہلے جملے وچ ۔۔۔میں لونڑ لا کے کھاواں اے تے دوجے چ اسیں لونڑ لا کے کھائیے
  13. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    I guess, the Punjabi tense/mood "maiN khAwAN ~ assIN khA'iye" has the same function as the Hindi-Urdu forms "maiN khA'UN ~ ham khA'EN". Right? As far as I remember, these forms are derived from the Sanskrit present indicative tense. Of course, in contemporary language the force is more of a subjunctive/jussive as has been pointed out earlier, than indicative.
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you Dib Jii and you are (almost) spot on when you compare this with the Urdu-Hindi subjunctive/jussive.This is the direction in which my thought process is travelling towards. I am of the view that we need to think of this construction not as a subjunctive but as a jussive. maiN khaa'uuN, ham khaa'iye.
  15. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    ham khaa'iye => That sounds very Punjabi to me. :) Do you have any undisputed example of such a Punjabi influence-free use?

    The Hindi form can be viewed as subjunctive: "tum caahte ho, mai~ jaauu~?" Can the Punjabi form be used in an analogous manner? (tussii~ caunde(?) ho, mai~ jaawaa~?)

    Jussive and subjunctive need not be formally separate any way. The same form may act as both, like it does in many languages, in fact.
  16. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Dib bhaa’ii, lagtaa hai kih Panjabi asar kii xabar Bengal tak bhii pahuNch ga’ii hai! ab aap hii bataa'iye maiN kahaaN se aisii misaaleN DhuuND kar laa’uuN jo Panjabi ke asar se paak hoN? kyaa ko'ii bach paayaa hai, is ke asar se? aap kii to ek naa-mumkin sii farmaa’ish hai. :)

    agar ho sake to post # 10 ko ek baar dekh liijiye. yih bhii ho saktaa hai kih maiN hii Ghalatii par huuN.
  17. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)

    jee, yeh baat to sahi hai, ki Urdu/Panjaabi kii ek dusrii ke asar se bilkul paak misaale~ pesh karnaa mushkil hai. par, waise me~ hinduustaan me~ panjaabi ka asar itnaa zordaar hai nahii~. mere hisaab se "ham khaa'iye" jaise istemal idhar logo~ ko bahut hii ajiib sunaai paDenge. dekhte hai~ hindustaani Hindi/Urdu maadrii-zabaaniyo~ kaa is masle par kyaa kehnaa hai.

    jii, dekhaa. par shaayad utnaa "undisputed" nahii~ hai uskaa matlab. Ghalat mai~ bhii ho saktaa huu~. aap ke paas yaqiinan panjaabii kii "parallel" misaal to maujuud hai hii!
  18. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    mu3aaf kiijiye gaa. is tarkiib meN Pakistan aur Hindustan kii Urdu kii baat nahiiN aur yih alag baat hai kih maiN sarHad ke donoN taraf bolii jaane vaalii ko ek hii zabaan manaataa huuN jis kaa naam Urdu hai. sarf-o-naHv kii is gardaan aur isti3maal kaa Panjabi se koiii ta3alluq nahiiN. jab maiN ne 3arz kiyaa thaa kih Urdu meN Panjabi se paak misaaleN kahaaN se laa'uuN, vuh maiN ne az raah-i-mazaaq-o-tanz kahaa thaa. vuh is liye kih har biimaarii kii vajh Panjabi se milaa'ii jaatii hai. aap aisii soch rakhne meN akele nahiiN!

    maiN aap kii baat mantaa huuN kih "ham khaa'iye" bahut 3ajiib sii tarkiib lagtii hai. lekin saHiiH siyaaq-o-sibaaq meN aisaa nahiiN hai.

    shaa3ir aur Faylasoof SaaHib donoN kii maadarii zabaan Urdu hii hai.

    aap ittifaaq kareN ge kih is laRii meN yih baHs munaasib nahiiN. aa'iye Panjabi jumle par tavajuuh deN. kyaa xayaal hai aap kaa? aur haaN, ek baar phir kahtaa chaluuN kih 3ain mumkin hai kih merii suujh-buujh Ghalat ho.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
  19. Alfaaz Senior Member

    Quote from here:
    Qureshpor SaaHib thanks for the answer in the other thread and I hope you weren't assuming that I was ignoring your question! The reason for not answering earlier was that you had explicitly stated that the topic of this thread is a statement and not a question. It seemed like a question to me (similar to navvaaN aayaaN ae soNReyaaN? or kitne aadimi the?), so I didn't think I could add much to what had already been said!

    پنجابی: تیرے کلیجے نوں لونڑ لا کے کھاواں؟ ← اردو: تیرے کلیجے کو نمک لگا کے کھاؤں؟

    From the posts above it seems that this as a statement is supposed to express a desire or wish. This brings to mind a few examples that might be relevant and/or similar!?

    jii kardaa maiN tennu vekhi javaaN, na'eeN tere jeyaa hor dis daa

    jii kardaa tennuN kol biThaawaaN

    Considering the examples above, could your sentence be restated as: ( jii kardaa ae) tere kaleje nuN luNR laa ke khaavaaN? Would this be correct?

    Again, I didn't have much to add and excuse me if I've just added more confusion to your thread!
  20. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    QP SaaHib, I agree one can be tempted to associate this Urdu conjugational form which is not imperative ''uThaa'iye, kyaa kiijiye/kiije etc.'' which is not only to be found in the poetry of Ghalib but also in a number of poems by modern Urdu poets like Iftikhar Arif or Jaun Elia et al. but also in prose and speech, although it is perhaps not a common feature in the colloquial language. Of course I back your last post in this thread that it is not related to Punjabi influence; if one started saying so we could end in accusing ''tum uTho'' as being a Punjabicism merely for the sake of similarity. At this point I can't say if it is the common source or cohabitation of these languages; most works suggest it was a different apabhransha that evolved into Urdu and Punjabi but as you know there are other theories. It seems safe to say that given the vaste area covered by these languages it would be impossible to state categorically that it was only the other apabhransha which evolved into Urdu as these regions being neighbours must have had ancient overlapping communities. By saying this, I don't mean that the apabhransha that went on to become Urdu didn't have these forms or didn't give an incentive to form them but this belongs to historical grammar and etymology which I'd have to have a deep dive into to find it out.

    The fact remains that these forms although scarcely used, are authoritative and literary. I don't believe anyone could blame Ghalib or Mir for giving in to Punjabicisms.

    Anyway, since we are discussing Punjabi, the abovesaid is not relevant to the core of the question. You suggested changing the grammatical number but for me, and the purpose of emphasising my person is that I am a "fake native" speaker of Punjabi, it does not change anything.

    The point I think is that this form serves several functions and this is why I decided to follow PG SaaHib's suit by naming it subjunctive and not to go into details. As far as my understanding goes you are more leaned towards jussive mood. I am not convinced about it because it in this case, in the case like the title of this thread, there is basically no real possibility to perform this action.

    Jussive mood would look perhaps like this in English:

    Let me eat up... [with 'let me' is not a request to allow 'I' to do it]

    but rather:

    Optative mood: which expresses a desire, a wish, something potential but not meant or not necessarily meant to be put into action.

    That is why I translated the sentences as I did it in my post and this is my understanding, not only understanding but also usage of this feature.

    If this line of thought is followed and the real possibility of a speaker who uses the plural first person for him- or herself, there is no single difference in meaning as I am suggesting. Perhaps it seems strange but the frequency of this form in the 1st sg. is much greater than 1st pl. and this might lead to confusion. Of course, jussive and other usages of this subjunctive form (I'm referring to Latin in this regard because it has a similar situation and also I think it it correspondents to this case quite closely, and it would be unnecessary and blurring to throw Sanskrit terms here). I mean to say, without context, it is subjunctive but with context it may express a verb in a subordinate clause or other nuances.
  21. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    merii Ghalatfahmii ke liye mu3afii maangnaa cahuungaa. dar asl, panjaabii aur urduu ke aapsii asar ko kis nazariye se dekhaa jaataa hai is mu'amle par merii zyaadaa jaankaarii nahii~ hai. mai~ ne kabhii nahii~ socaa thaa, ki ise "biimaarii" Thahraayaa jaa'egaa.

    samajh gayaa. bataane ke liye shukriyaa. :)

    jii, bilkul.
  22. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I would like to express my gratitude to all the friends who have responded so far.

    Looking at the above quotes, PG and marrish SaaHibaan seem to me to have one understanding of the sentence and shahmukhi and Alfaaz saaHibaan a slightly different understanding.

    First of all a clarity. I was n't really expecting any detailed discussion on the tense/mood of "khaavaaN" employing grammar terminology but now that it has been mentioned, we might as well discuss it. Yes, the subjunctive and jussive moods are interconnected but it does serve a good purpose if one were to separate them. When one commands or orders in the second person (tuu/tum/aap), this is normally referred to as imperative. Commands to first persons (maiN/ham) and third persons (vuh), come within the framework of the jussive.

    When I suggested using the plural verb (the example translating to "Let us.."), I was hinting that perhaps one needs to think of "khaavaaN" as "Let me..". As marrish SaaHib has indicated, this "let me/us" is not "Allow me/us".

    PG's translation of "I should season your liver and eat it" comes pretty close to the meaning that I have in my mind. Alfaaz SaaHib has expressed a similar view by adding "jii kardaa e".

    shahmukhi SaaHib is of the view that it is a wish and so does marrish Saahib, the latter calling the mood "optative". From the translations the two gentlemen have provided, the sentence is taken as conditional, which I do not believe it is.

    How does this sound to you?

    Just let me season your liver and eat it!
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  23. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You are also thanked for your synthesis. ''Just let me season your liver and eat it!'' sounds quite well, but it would not be so without ''just''. Please consider that I have given two ways of translation in my first post and I would not classify either of them as conditional, because there is no situation of subordinate clauses and this sentence is a simple sentence on its own, in which this subjunctive/jussive/optative turns out to be an independent verbal form which is in state to express the notion of a wish, a possibility or intent, while a conditional, however it does use the same form, is in my opinion something different.

    Both translations of mine, I hope so, express something like meraa jii kardaa e/meraa iraadaa e/kaash ke/huNR e chaahiidaa ke/es waqt maiN nuuN eNj lagdaa e ke... but not chal/aa jaa, tere kaleje nuuN luuNR laa ke khaavaaN.
  24. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    But after all that is said and done, the implication in the Punjabi sentence is "aa, tere kaleje juuN luuNR laa ke khaavaaN!"

    Here are a few examples of the Jussive in English.

    a) Let me see what I can do to solve your problem... Let us pray.

    b) Let there be light!....he which hath no stomach to fight, let him depart...Let them perish​.
  25. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Let us pray that we get more responses! In the meantime I tend to agree with your understanding for obvious reasons but, but, it is not a possible request, come on, let me eat up your liver, it is the expression of one's normally unreal wish or intent which does not have to be realised.
  26. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Hardly, though it does sound like a Yiddish influenced insult.
  27. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ! جی آئیاں نوں پی جی صاحب۔ شکر اے تہانوں وی سہااڈا چیتا آئیا اے۔

    کِہڑی گل اُتے کہندے او؟ Hardly گل اے وے کہ جِہڑی تسیں گل لکھی اے میری سمجھ توں باہر اے
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  28. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Could you please explain, pg jii.
  29. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English

    I can't think of an instance where this saying would make sense to me, so let's just say that is my first discomfort. I don't think my translation matches any equivalent English saying. Is there one? Could you paint me a picture and tell me when someone might say such a thing?

    And as to it sounding like a Yiddish insult, I've heard some rather detailed Yiddish influenced insults in English. The above sentence reminded me of them.

    And to return to the above question: QP Sahib, do you agree with my usage of "should?" Maybe even "I oughta..."
  30. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    pg SaaHib, I am not familiar with any Yiddish, so I can not comment. And to answer your last part, "should/ought" does make sense but I am not 100% convinced.

    Regarding painting a picture. Imagine you have been, as a boy, very very naughty and troublesome for your parents. You are always in trouble with your parents over different things...speaking when you should be listening, not being polite to your elders, fighting with your brothers and sisters, bringing home complaints from parents of other children...

    Your mother is at her wits end! In shear anger and desperation, she says to you...

    "tere kaleje nuuN luuNR laa ke khaavaaN!".

    I have heard this phrase being used....along with..

    "o terii gor bale!" I am sure I won't need to translate this for you.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  31. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    No clue... My parents used English or Hindi when they were frustrated with us!
  32. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    बलना balnā [S. ज्वलनीयं], v.n. To burn (as fire the heart, &c.); to be lighted (a lamp, &c.=barnā).

    گور gor (prob. akin to S. गौरी), s.f. A grave, tomb
  33. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Thanks for this. Did not know that a) "balnaa" was also a Hindi verb (we've discussed this elsewhere, I'm sure) and b) what "gor" meant.
  34. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    My post # 32 was meant to convey to you exactly the same sentiments as your questions!:)

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