Panjabi, Gurmukhi: writing 'win' and 'order' Persian-origin words

[Pvitr]

I would like to know forum members' thoughts on writing a couple of Persian-origin words in Panjabi. These words are not particularly common in daily speech, but they have been used for hundreds of years, so are part of Panjabi vocab. which would presumably affect pronunciation.

So can you tell me how you would spell these words please? I would prefer to know in Gurmukhi, but Shahmukhi spellings with the diacritics that explain the sound would be useful too.

(I've just copied the Persian spellings from the web - I don't know the script)

1. Win/triumph/victory فتح

ਫ਼ਤਿਹ /fətɪh/ - probably the most common spelling I've seen, and matches pronunciation that I've heard

ਫ਼ਤਹਿ /fətəhɪ/ - some people go for this. Is this closer to the original pronunciation?

ਫ਼ਤੇਹ /fəteɪh/ - I've never seen this outside the online dictionary


2. Order/mandate فرمان

ਫ਼ਰਮਾਨ /fərma:n/ - an online dictionary spelling that matches how I have heard it pronounced

ਫ਼ੁਰਮਾਨ /fʊrma:n/ - alternative spelling with slight change to pronunciation

From my meagre knowledge of Persian, it seems as if Persian speakers use more of an /ɒ/ rather than the schwa sound /ə/of Panjabi. But putting that to one side, do any of the spellings above seem better than others? If so, for what reason? (Eg closer to original pronunciation/closer to modern Panjabi pronunciation/some other reason).

Thanks for your help.

 

[desi4life]

I would like to know forum members' thoughts on writing a couple of Persian-origin words in Panjabi. These words are not particularly common in daily speech, but they have been used for hundreds of years, so are part of Panjabi vocab. which would presumably affect pronunciation.

So can you tell me how you would spell these words please? I would prefer to know in Gurmukhi, but Shahmukhi spellings with the diacritics that explain the sound would be useful too.

(I've just copied the Persian spellings from the web - I don't know the script)

1. Win/triumph/victory فتح

ਫ਼ਤਿਹ /fətɪh/ - probably the most common spelling I've seen, and matches pronunciation that I've heard

ਫ਼ਤਹਿ /fətəhɪ/ - some people go for this. Is this closer to the original pronunciation?

ਫ਼ਤੇਹ /fəteɪh/ - I've never seen this outside the online dictionary


2. Order/mandate فرمان

ਫ਼ਰਮਾਨ /fərma:n/ - an online dictionary spelling that matches how I have heard it pronounced

ਫ਼ੁਰਮਾਨ /fʊrma:n/ - alternative spelling with slight change to pronunciation

From my meagre knowledge of Persian, it seems as if Persian speakers use more of an /ɒ/ rather than the schwa sound /ə/of Panjabi. But putting that to one side, do any of the spellings above seem better than others? If so, for what reason? (Eg closer to original pronunciation/closer to modern Panjabi pronunciation/some other reason).

Thanks for your help.

The most common Gurmukhi spellings are without the nuqta, i.e. ਫਤਿਹ and ਫਰਮਾਨ, and are commonly pronounced /fətɪh/ and /fərma:n/ as you stated. Comparing the Punjabi pronunciation with modern Persian might not be very useful because the pronunciation of Persian and Arabic words used in Punjabi (and Hindi/Urdu) is based on Indo-Persian, just as the pronunciation of English words used is generally based on Indian English not British/American English.

 

[Pvitr]

The most common Gurmukhi spellings are without the nuqta, i.e. ਫਤਿਹ and ਫਰਮਾਨ, and are commonly pronounced /fətɪh/ and /fərma:n/ as you stated. Comparing the Punjabi pronunciation with modern Persian might not be very useful because the pronunciation of Persian and Arabic words used in Punjabi (and Hindi/Urdu) is based on Indo-Persian, just as the pronunciation of English words used is generally based on Indian English not British/American English.

Thank you. Yes I agree with the comment about the nuqta being left off - perfectly acceptable in my view.

A bigger issue for me is the vowels. All the various spellings for ਫ਼ਤਿਹ /fətɪh/ above are in the same online dictionary (Shabdkosh) - some without nuqta - and I have seen both the first two spellings used.

As for ਫਰਮਾਨ I would have used this spelling, but someone (who I know is well-read on the subject in general) recently suggested that the ਫ਼ੁਰਮਾਨ /fʊrma:n/ version is right.

I would like to understand which option is considered 'correct', specifically which vowels to use, rather than whether the Panjabi ਫ/'ph' is used or ਫ਼/f (although that is interesting also), as well as the reasoning behind it. Probably not very clear in my first post.