Panjabi: infinitive/gerund/datu eg ਹੋਣਾ or ਕਰਨਾ

Pvitr

Member
Panjabi
Hello all
Does anyone know the correct term for the Panjabi verb in the sense of 'to ~'? For example ਹੋਣਾ (to be) or ਕਰਨਾ (to do).
I have seen the terms 'gerund' and 'datu' used - I am trying to find the correct Panjabi word for what I would call an infinitive in English.
I hope that makes sense.
(Did a quick search of this board and internet, but no conclusive answer found. Also if anyone could give a Gurmukhi spelling as well as English that would be useful). TIA.
 
  • MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    ਭਾਵਾਰਥ ਕਿਰਦੰਤ / بھوارتھ کردنت ?

    According to this page, Punjabi grammar seems to understand all derivate verbal forms in terms of "participles", and the term "infinitive" es used as an attributive to other nouns ("infinitive participle", etc.), rather than as a standalone noun itself (which is not unusual in verb-inflected languages).

    This is just a guess, as I don't know Punjabi at all.
    (From a purely grammatical point of view, it doesn't make much sense to me, to call it "gerund").
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    FWIW, I have seen the corresponding Hindi-Urdu form referred to as नाकृदंत (naa-kridant, ie, the "naa participle") in some Hindi grammars (and the other participles are aa-kridant and taa-kridant), and I've seen the form called مصدر (masdar) in an Urdu grammatical discussion. It's possible that (Punjabi versions of) these names might occur in some Punjabi grammatical discussions...?
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    That's interesting. I have never heard that usage for Panjabi.

    I wonder if the lack of obvious 'meta-language' is something inherent to Panjabi (or other N Indic languages). Is this the wrong way of looking at the verb base?

    Should I be using a different form as the 'base' from which to conjugate?
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    Is this the wrong way of looking at the verb base?

    Should I be using a different form as the 'base' from which to conjugate?

    Well, it's probably worth clearly distinguishing between three different verb forms:

    * The form of the verb that's the "simplest" possible (to which endings get attached, etc), sometimes called the "stem."
    * The form of the verb that's typically used in dictionaries of the language.
    * The form of the verb that's an infinitive

    Depending on the language, these forms may or may not coincide. Some examples to illustrate the kind of diversity that's possible:

    (1) In English, the simplest possible form of the verb is the bare infinitive (just "eat" or "walk" or "scream"), and this is also the form that's typically listed in dictionaries. In other words, all three forms listed above collapse in English.

    (2) In Urdu-Hindi, the form that's typically listed in dictionaries is the -naa form, which is an infinitive, but this is not the simplest possible form of the verb. That would be just the stem without the -naa suffix (eg kar- for the verb karnaa, or khaa- for the verb khaanaa, etc). In some Hindi grammars, I've seen this stem referred to as the dhaatu of the verb. I'm not sure what word is used for this stem in Urdu grammars.

    (3) In Punjabi, I think the situation is roughly the same as in Hindi-Urdu: the -naa/-NRaa form is the one that's typically listed in dictionaries, but it's probably fair to call the stem without the -naa/-NRaa "simpler."

    (4) In Sanskrit, I think dictionaries usually list the root (ie, the dhātu), which is perhaps the "simplest" possible form of the verb. But this form is never used as-is in Sanskrit (I think...?) --- in particular, the Sanskrit dhātu is not the Sanskrit infinitive or verbal noun. I think this usage of the word dhātu by Sanskrit grammarians is where the usage of dhaatu in Hindi grammars for the verb stem comes from, though it's not really an identical concept.

    (5) In Bengali, I think dictionaries usually cite the verbal noun form (eg, kôra), but the simplest possible form would be the stem to which suffixes are attached (kôr- in the case of kôra). Neither of these is the infinitive (eg, kôrte). I don't know what any of the verb forms are called by Bengali grammarians.

    (6) In Japanese, dictionaries typically cite the plain non-past conjugation (called the shuushikei (終止形, terminal form) or sometimes the jishokei (辞書形, dictionary form)). That might (or might not) be one of the simplest forms of the verb, but there are a number of other forms that are essentially just as simple, and none of them really corresponds very well to an infinitive or to a verbal noun.

    [Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of these! :)]
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    Thank you all.

    According to this page, Punjabi grammar seems to understand all derivate verbal forms in terms of "participles"
    In that Wikibooks link, the section on Verbs also meantions ਧਾਤੂ/dhaatuu (long vowel at the end).

    Interesting that in Gurbani ਧਾਤੁ/dhaatu (short vowel at the end) is used to mean 'essence' I believe.

    I don't know in reality what is used, but a brief google search shows ਮਸਦਰ (masdar) often enough, which is akin to the Urdu term above. But I also saw reference to dhaatu in parentheses right after

    ਗੀਰੀ - ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਪੀਡੀਆ

    Panjabi language Wikipedia suggests ਮਸਦਰ (masdar) refers to the infinitive (to ~) Panjabi Wiki-masadara. Also says this word is used in Arabi/Farsi/Urdu. If this is true, that may be why it is unfamiliar to me.

    Having looked at this further I believe the root is referred to as ਧਾਤੂ/dhaatuu, but I'm not sure what the -naa form is called in Panjabi, although it could be a sub-category of dhaatuu, perhaps a racit dhaatuu (created root).
     
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